Autoweek Rant!!!!!
09-08-2002, 09:48 PM
#16
[quote]Originally posted by 4Banger:
<strong>Not speaking for everyone but I really don't give a crap if my porsche is not viewed as a real Pcar to those heavily involved with rear/mid engine paradigms.</strong><hr></blockquote>
same here...
<strong>Not speaking for everyone but I really don't give a crap if my porsche is not viewed as a real Pcar to those heavily involved with rear/mid engine paradigms.</strong><hr></blockquote>
same here...
09-08-2002, 10:36 PM
#17
I used to subscribe to Auto Week way back when and I recall this same line of hogwash then as well. Perhaps they think their core readership appreciates the rediculous notion that these are not true Porsches... I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me adequately how it is the 356 qualifies as a 'real' Porsche when an awful lot of its content was pure VW. It's not that I dislike the 356 (I think they are, dare I say it? - cute), but is the 924/944 series less a Porsche because of engine location? Are we to believe that the Engineers of Porsche are too hidebound to vary the formula? 'Hell No Hans! We can't put the engine up front! Can we?
09-08-2002, 11:19 PM
#18
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Id ask the Autoweek guy to take that 86 951 and put it on the track with any other car offered in the Porsche lineup for 1986. Stir to a slow boil and get back with me.
Nuff said.
Nuff said.
09-09-2002, 03:06 AM
#20
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It should probably be mentioned that so-called non-Porsche's such as the 928 and 944 were largely responsible for keeping the company successful. Strong sales of such Porche's provided the seriously needed funds required to develop the groundbreaking 959 with its All Wheel Drive system that would be later used in the Carrera 4.
Just as the 944 and 928 were responsible for allowing Porsche to develop new technologies and cars. The Cayenne will do the same, allowing Porsche to return to an as yet undisclosed form of motorsport. The Cayenne might not be a real Porsche either but I bet it will pump most classic 911's
Just as the 944 and 928 were responsible for allowing Porsche to develop new technologies and cars. The Cayenne will do the same, allowing Porsche to return to an as yet undisclosed form of motorsport. The Cayenne might not be a real Porsche either but I bet it will pump most classic 911's
09-09-2002, 05:33 AM
#21
I have found out the realtionship between 911 & 944 quite good here in Finland.Of course there are so few examples of Porsche's here, so almost everybody knows each other.We all know 951 can outperform the most of 911, but still most of the people consider only 911 as a real Porsche.That does not bother me, iam satisfied with my 951.Still i have plans to own 911 as well.Would be nice to own both of them!
What comes to those early Mustangs the real V8 289 were something else than those "Ford Falcon" Mustangs.Six cylinder models had smaller brakes (4-lug wheels), smaller rearend only three speed trans etc.I had converted (back in 1978) one of these 6 cyl Mustangs to V8.I had to change engine,transmission,rear end & all other suspension componets! These 6 cylinders are total fake comparing to V8 models.
A friend of mine had few years ago 64 1/2 Mustang cabriolet with original 289 4 bbl carb.It was very nice car.Brought back good memories from the late '70's when we used to cruise with my other friend's '65 Mustang, also with 289 V8.
It's funny but these early Mustang are nowadays cheaper here in Finland than in the States.
Olli
'88 951
What comes to those early Mustangs the real V8 289 were something else than those "Ford Falcon" Mustangs.Six cylinder models had smaller brakes (4-lug wheels), smaller rearend only three speed trans etc.I had converted (back in 1978) one of these 6 cyl Mustangs to V8.I had to change engine,transmission,rear end & all other suspension componets! These 6 cylinders are total fake comparing to V8 models.
A friend of mine had few years ago 64 1/2 Mustang cabriolet with original 289 4 bbl carb.It was very nice car.Brought back good memories from the late '70's when we used to cruise with my other friend's '65 Mustang, also with 289 V8.
It's funny but these early Mustang are nowadays cheaper here in Finland than in the States.
Olli
'88 951
09-09-2002, 06:59 AM
#22
Race Director
[quote]Originally posted by Olli Snellman:
<strong>I have found out the realtionship between 911 & 944 quite good here in Finland.Of course there are so few examples of Porsche's here, so almost everybody knows each other.We all know 951 can outperform the most of 911, but still most of the people consider only 911 as a real Porsche.That does not bother me, iam satisfied with my 951.Still i have plans to own 911 as well.Would be nice to own both of them!
What comes to those early Mustangs the real V8 289 were something else than those "Ford Falcon" Mustangs.Six cylinder models had smaller brakes (4-lug wheels).......
Olli
'88 951</strong><hr></blockquote>
Um, even the V8 models had 4 lug wheels.......
Tifo
<strong>I have found out the realtionship between 911 & 944 quite good here in Finland.Of course there are so few examples of Porsche's here, so almost everybody knows each other.We all know 951 can outperform the most of 911, but still most of the people consider only 911 as a real Porsche.That does not bother me, iam satisfied with my 951.Still i have plans to own 911 as well.Would be nice to own both of them!
What comes to those early Mustangs the real V8 289 were something else than those "Ford Falcon" Mustangs.Six cylinder models had smaller brakes (4-lug wheels).......
Olli
'88 951</strong><hr></blockquote>
Um, even the V8 models had 4 lug wheels.......
Tifo
09-09-2002, 07:21 AM
#23
[quote]Um, even the V8 models had 4 lug wheels.......
Tifo<hr></blockquote>
maybe smaller V8 (was it 260?) but all 289 models had 5-lug wheels.If not, then it must be 6 cyl model converted to 289 V8 (without any other upgrades)
Olli
'88 951
Tifo<hr></blockquote>
maybe smaller V8 (was it 260?) but all 289 models had 5-lug wheels.If not, then it must be 6 cyl model converted to 289 V8 (without any other upgrades)
Olli
'88 951
09-09-2002, 09:07 AM
#24
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So if we are supposed to follow the ridiculous notion that a 924 series car or a 928 series car is not a true porsche. Then what is the true Ford the Model T?
09-09-2002, 09:12 AM
#25
Race Director
[quote]Originally posted by Olli Snellman:
<strong>
maybe smaller V8 (was it 260?) but all 289 models had 5-lug wheels.If not, then it must be 6 cyl model converted to 289 V8 (without any other upgrades)
Olli
'88 951</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's strange. In high school, on of my good friends had a 65 mustang fastback that was bonestock with no mods or changes (his dad was the original owner so the history of the car was know) and it had a 289 with 4 lug wheels. I'm 99% sure that it wasn't messed with. I'm sure you're right (as I thought it was strange to have all of that power and only 4 lug wheels...), but his car must have been some stange anomaly..
Tifo
<strong>
maybe smaller V8 (was it 260?) but all 289 models had 5-lug wheels.If not, then it must be 6 cyl model converted to 289 V8 (without any other upgrades)
Olli
'88 951</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's strange. In high school, on of my good friends had a 65 mustang fastback that was bonestock with no mods or changes (his dad was the original owner so the history of the car was know) and it had a 289 with 4 lug wheels. I'm 99% sure that it wasn't messed with. I'm sure you're right (as I thought it was strange to have all of that power and only 4 lug wheels...), but his car must have been some stange anomaly..
Tifo
09-09-2002, 10:33 AM
#26
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I have had a subscription to Sports Car Market for the last five years. It is simply the best automotive publication out there period!
What you read is just one of hundreds of auction reports published each month. The magazine, and purpose of Martin's column in Autoweek is to inform the reader of different market trends at auction.
First off, the 944 is not considered a Porsche. Second off it drives better than a contemporary 911. Third off, who shives a git.
Even though there are way too many 911's produced to be considered a collector car, there will always be a market for clean old 911's. He recently bashed a 912 that was auctioned. Should have put the $$ towards a 911. Right again. Fact is that is what old car collectors want.
He did buy a Lotus, then dumped it for a Ferrari. He owned and raced a lot more exotic cars than many of us combined. Put your childish emotions aside, and look at what he is saying in the context it is being said.
What you read is just one of hundreds of auction reports published each month. The magazine, and purpose of Martin's column in Autoweek is to inform the reader of different market trends at auction.
First off, the 944 is not considered a Porsche. Second off it drives better than a contemporary 911. Third off, who shives a git.
Even though there are way too many 911's produced to be considered a collector car, there will always be a market for clean old 911's. He recently bashed a 912 that was auctioned. Should have put the $$ towards a 911. Right again. Fact is that is what old car collectors want.
He did buy a Lotus, then dumped it for a Ferrari. He owned and raced a lot more exotic cars than many of us combined. Put your childish emotions aside, and look at what he is saying in the context it is being said.
09-09-2002, 10:50 AM
#28
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Martin has annoyed me many times, hes a friggin NO-it-all whos most happy when he's trashing someone elses dreams. The fact is that the market is the market, he should report on it rather than make his stupid pronouncements about it. OTOH, as a current 996 owner whos thinking about a 9x4/8 car for track, he's doing me a great service, helping to keep the price down.
BTW, a true purist, thinks that anything that is a Porsche design is a Porsche (except may das Pepper van which is a bit of a stretch). Some may be better than others but thats either individual taste or left to the stopwatch. Any one who thinks that a 9x4 isn't a Porsche other hasn't ever driven one, or hasn't been lapped by a 968RS yet. Having owned a 356B, '86 944, '96 C4 and now a '00 996, I have to say that they are all great cars in there own way. I guess his initials KM, must stand for King Moron.
BTW, a true purist, thinks that anything that is a Porsche design is a Porsche (except may das Pepper van which is a bit of a stretch). Some may be better than others but thats either individual taste or left to the stopwatch. Any one who thinks that a 9x4 isn't a Porsche other hasn't ever driven one, or hasn't been lapped by a 968RS yet. Having owned a 356B, '86 944, '96 C4 and now a '00 996, I have to say that they are all great cars in there own way. I guess his initials KM, must stand for King Moron.
09-09-2002, 10:54 AM
#29
[quote]1965 6 cyl Mustangs were 4 lug, ALL v8s were 5 lug. <hr></blockquote>
OK this Mustang stuff might be a little of topic...but all 1965 V8 had 5 lug wheels.I used to work in the late '70's quite a lot with my friend's V8 289 Mustang.It has 5 lug wheels, front disc brakes and 4 bbl carb.It has so called power pack option with extra gauges around steering column.It was real fast, at least that's how i remeber it.It was defenitely faster than my '57 Chevy Bel Air cabriolet.For some reason i had better luck with girls with that Chevy.No Porsches around back then...All fast cars were Mustangs,Camaros, Fire Birds (That's how it was here in Finland)
Olli
'88 951
OK this Mustang stuff might be a little of topic...but all 1965 V8 had 5 lug wheels.I used to work in the late '70's quite a lot with my friend's V8 289 Mustang.It has 5 lug wheels, front disc brakes and 4 bbl carb.It has so called power pack option with extra gauges around steering column.It was real fast, at least that's how i remeber it.It was defenitely faster than my '57 Chevy Bel Air cabriolet.For some reason i had better luck with girls with that Chevy.No Porsches around back then...All fast cars were Mustangs,Camaros, Fire Birds (That's how it was here in Finland)
Olli
'88 951
09-09-2002, 11:29 AM
#30
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I was surprised that the car he picked to comment on was a flogged out 100+ mile car. It was obviously not well cared for, (unlike many Rennlist member's cars). At that age, mileage and condition, I can't understand why someone would be heartbroken to get $7700. The car is going to need a lot of TLC and $$. Why take the risk when you could get a well cared for example or reasonably good 968 for a bit more?
These aren't the sort of cars that sell well at auctions. Except for a few icons, (356 speedsters, 911 Turbos), most good Porsche change hands from cultist to cultist. Auctioneers don't know what to do with them.
Unfortunatelly there's no relationship between collectability and how good a car is to drive. Just check out the letter from an early Mustang shopper in that issue. We just did dream cruise here oin Detroit. Many of the most cherished cars at that event are absolutely terrible drivers.
If its any comfort, owners of mid '80s Vettes are in the same situation. Collectors want the early ones or the latest. Its just the way the collector game goes.
One other thing to consider. Can you remember seeing a Porsche, (other than a 356), with an antique plate? We just don't have that mindset. Nearly everyone in this group compares their cars to current machines. That's a pretty remarkable mindset for folks whose cars are 15-20 years old. If someone can't see the value of a 20 year old car that is still a benchmark for handling and high speed stability, then they really deserve to be driving around in a 6 cylinder antique with V8 badges!
These aren't the sort of cars that sell well at auctions. Except for a few icons, (356 speedsters, 911 Turbos), most good Porsche change hands from cultist to cultist. Auctioneers don't know what to do with them.
Unfortunatelly there's no relationship between collectability and how good a car is to drive. Just check out the letter from an early Mustang shopper in that issue. We just did dream cruise here oin Detroit. Many of the most cherished cars at that event are absolutely terrible drivers.
If its any comfort, owners of mid '80s Vettes are in the same situation. Collectors want the early ones or the latest. Its just the way the collector game goes.
One other thing to consider. Can you remember seeing a Porsche, (other than a 356), with an antique plate? We just don't have that mindset. Nearly everyone in this group compares their cars to current machines. That's a pretty remarkable mindset for folks whose cars are 15-20 years old. If someone can't see the value of a 20 year old car that is still a benchmark for handling and high speed stability, then they really deserve to be driving around in a 6 cylinder antique with V8 badges!