Tom R.

Regarding the re badgeing of a mustang. I have a 68 Friebird conv. with a 350. If I were to put on a 400 hood there would be a lot more gawking at the car.

Fact is the people interested in buying my car right now as we speak dont give a rats **** about which 350 or for that matter which V8 is in the car. They are looking for a nice driving weekend car. The $$$ I put into the car replacing whole quarters instead of just fixing the small rust on the bottom of the rear will not be realized now that i am selling the car.

Maybe buying a six and putting a V8 badge is the way to go for a weekend toy. Reality is nobody cares.

Did you know my VW beetle did 55mph just as fast as my Firebird did 55 mph, which coincidently is also just as fast as my porsche does 55 mph. that means two cars with four cylinder engines do 55 mph just as fast as a stump pulling V8!

Sebastian

Tom,

Well said, that's right on the mark.

tifosiman

[quote]Originally posted by Olli Snellman:
<strong>

OK this Mustang stuff might be a little of topic...but all 1965 V8 had 5 lug wheels.I used to work in the late '70's quite a lot with my friend's V8 289 Mustang.It has 5 lug wheels, front disc brakes and 4 bbl carb.It has so called power pack option with extra gauges around steering column.It was real fast, at least that's how i remeber it.It was defenitely faster than my '57 Chevy Bel Air cabriolet.For some reason i had better luck with girls with that Chevy.No Porsches around back then...All fast cars were Mustangs,Camaros, Fire Birds (That's how it was here in Finland)

Olli
'88 951</strong><hr></blockquote>

OK, OK, OK, you're right already! <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" /> I do know that the 65 fastback in high school had 4 lugs on it, but heck, my brain was probably filled with malted hops and bong resin so any memories I have are probably diluted........

Tifo

M758

The situation is this. To outsiders the front engine watercooled line (924,928,944,968) will never be real Porsches. Unfortnatly this is due to non-porsche traditional engine type and layout. Another factor is the looks. They don't have a Porsche look. The the 924/944 line does not have trandional look and as a matter of fact since it has been copied by so many others (RX7, Supra, 300ZX), that it has diluted the "Porscheness" of the shape.

All of this is how outsiders view the cars. My involvement with the local PCA has been nothing, but good (with exception of one A-hole at a concour. Pissed off me and my mom especially with the way he looked at her 91 928 & my dad's pristine 84 944 a perenial class/division show winner for the past 3 years).

Track guys (autocross & DE) Respect the 944 line and 914 line as real Porsches because they know what they really capable of.

I remember being on a drive with group of various other Porsches. When we had arrieved at out destination one of the other members commented on how fast the 944 Turbo the blew by his 964. He simple could not keep up with a stock 951. He tried and failed. (Note this was *legal* passing of a slower car ) I was at first a little irritated by this, but then my friend and I quickly & nicely told him about our cars. He learned quite a bit and was genuinly interested and was really a nice guy. In fact believe that he now has 968 Cab!

Also in my invlovlment in 944 spec racing has led to a number of intersting 944 encounters. I have spoken to a number of guys who have entered the 944 racing world for the racing aspect not the 944 aspect. After their inital drives in these cars nearly all have commented on how nice, fast, and fun to drive even the "underpowered" 944 is. Many even commented that the the liked it better than their 914,911,boxster out on the track.

Bottomline the 944 line of cars are great cars and it takes people who know about them to apperciate... Everyone else.... well don't let their oppinions **** you off.
<img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" />

951Badger

I have to say that negative opinions (regarding what is and is not a real Porsche) of the 944/951/968/928 etc. DO, in fact, **** me off. Who the hell is ANYONE, other than Porsche, to say what is and is not? I, personally, would NEVER buy a 924. I don't like them. I don't like how they look. I think they are underpowered and somewhat boring (please don't flame me 924 owners...I'm just making a point here). Is it a "real" Porsche? Of course it is!!!! You know why? Because PORSCHE built it and SAYS it is!!!

Some shmuck who owns a 911 decides that a 944 isn't "real". Show me how he is qualified to make that assesment.

And just because someone has a lot of money and has owned 911 TT, 360 Modena's, and Lambo's...does not qualify them to decide!

Jesus Christ people how hard is this??? Does it have a Porsche badge placed there, at the factory, by PORSCHE????

Then it is!!!!!

JGriff

My Autoweek subscription has recently come up for renewal, and I was primarily thinking of not renewing because I just don't seem to have the time to read it each week (hence they pile up all around the house... and I feel obligated to try to catch up), but given this point of view (which I have yet to read... it is probably a few issues deep in my stack!!), I will probably not renew.

Mr. Martin probably figured it would be good for his career to "preach to the choir", given that the demographics of the magazine are such that most of their readers that have Porsches probably drive a non-944 i.e. 911 or Boxster. I recall reading about their target audience (in advertising literature), and it stated that their readership earns $XXX,XXX (i.e. over 6 figures) on average, and owns an average of 4 or 5 or more cars.

Maybe someday when I pick up a 911 (in addition to my S2) and beginning earning over 6 figures, I'll resubscribe.

Tom R.

Badger and Griff, I disagree with both of you.

Badger, Porsche didn't make the 944 until the end of it's life. Audi did. But VW made the 914, and there was the VW logo on the rear of european 914's right next to the porsche logo.

BTW Volvo doesnt make their convertible either, Nissan didn't make the 300Zx convertible IIRC. and the list goes on.

Griff, I've been reading Keith Martins magazine cover to cover for the last 5 years. In the issue I just received he discussed the 911 he got hosed on, the Ferrari he bought & sold & how much it cost to run. With the Lotus he said he bought it to see what 12k will get. He got out of it too, and i think said the car had little upside $$ potential.

Maybe I can sell him my RX7 convertible. Then he can bash it as just another jap car with no upside potential, just like he bashes all the Z's.

In fact I subscribed when I read one of his reports in autoweek on the 240Z. I think he bashed the "Nissan Restored" 240Z's of about 95/96. He bashed the car and basically said who is gonna pay 25g for a car that is perfectly restored when you can get all the drivers you want for under 10K.

SCM magazine had a multi part series written by an attorney about a 951 that was totalled. Nowhere was the pedigree of the car mentioned.

You guys are taking a lot out of context. Note how Martin's reviews (auction reports) usually tie into the escape roads review of an old car. Great journalism if you ask me.

Z-man

[quote]Originally posted by Jon Bruner:
<strong>Much the same way that the 914 will never be a TRUE Boxster....</strong><hr></blockquote>
Don't you mean: "Much the same way that the BOXSTER will never be a TRUE 914?"

Who said this: "When the green flag drops, the BS stops?" Well, that is very much the case for the 924/944 series. The 944 is easier to drive on a track than a 911, EVEN according to seasoned drivers!

Oh, and there's two recently started racing series outside of PCA club racing: the 944 Cup and 944-Spec series. How many 12+ year old cars do you know of that have not one, but two dedicated racing series going on today? I don't think there's even a 911-spec series outside of the PCA club racing venue.

Bottom line: ignorant people just don't understand the non-911 Porsches (914, 924, 944, even the Boxster...etc). And that's too bad, 'cause they don't know what they're missing!

Getting off my soapbox,
-Zoltan.

Renn951

Send letters to awletters@crain.com.

Here's mine:

Dear Autoweek Editor,
Autoweek certainly opened a can of worms with its September 9, 2002 Market report on page 31. The only debate that has raged longer than the old chicken versus the egg argument is the question of what is a "real" Porsche.

In his opening salvo, Keith Martin states that Porsche hasn't learned its lesson that "the world wants them to build rear-engined sports cars" and that anything else, while providing "some immediate sales success" does nothing but cause "long-term damage to their image." He continues by stating that the 944 Turbo "will never be a true Porsche." Really? Consider the following.

The 924/944/968, while amounting to approximately one-third of Porsche's all-time production total stuffed the company's coffers so full of cash reserves during the 1980's it was able to weather the recession of the early 1990's, stay independent in light of take-over rumors involving both Diamler-Benz and VW-Audi, and become the world's most profitable auto manufacturer.

I'm not sure whether Mr. Martin believes that if a Porsche doesn't have its engine hanging out behind the rear axle it isn't a "true" Porsche, or if he just really dislikes the 924/944/968 series for some reason. If the former, someone should remind Mr. Martin that most of Porsche's greatest cars; i.e., 550, 904, 906, 907, 910, 917, 936, 956, and 962, have been mid-engined, not rear-engined. If the latter, then Mr. Martin is simply a narrow-minded snob and the sort of individual (usually a 911 owner who calls his car a "Porsh") that those Porsche owners not possessing a 356 or 911 have come across at one time or another. In either case, Mr. Martin should consider a refresher course in Porsche history.

The issue of what is a "true" Porsche from the perspective of the Porsche Club of America (PCA) was addressed in the June 2001 issue of Porsche Panorama, the PCA's official magazine. In that issue, Bob Miller, National President of the PCA, wrote as follows: "Recently I learned that some Boxster owners have the opinion that they are not accepted as equals in PCA because of the model Porsche they drive. This is an unfortunate perception that has occurred in PCA virtually every time a new, different Porsche was introduced. When the first 911 was built, some 356 owners had serious reservations. When the 914 was presented, some considered it to be merely a Volkswagen. The 924/944/968 series had the same reception by some, as did the 928. And what about when the new water-cooled 996 first hit our shores? Today all of these models are well accepted. The number of members that held these prejudices has historically been small but loud of voice."

Must Autoweek give voice to such prejudice and criticism? I, like many readers, turn to Autoweek because I am an enthusiast and enjoy all that is automotive. Having just renewed my subscription after an absence of a couple of years and receiving my first few issues, I was beginning to once again enjoy being an Autoweek reader. However, I was surprised by the condescending tone of a Mr. Martin's writing. Perhaps time has blurred my recollection, but I remember the Market report as a feature that provided collectors and those interested in unique automobiles with an objective overview of vehicles crossing the auction block, along with some insight into the general market of the subject vehicle. Instead, Mr. Martin subjects us to his obvious disdain and utter contempt for the 924/944/968 series.

I would have expected Autoweek to offer a more reasoned and objective overview. In contrast, Bruce Anderson, writing in Excellence magazine's April 2002 issue stated: "Last year, we saw a slight increase in the market values for the 924/944/968 series of Porsches. That trend continues this year, with a few small -- and occasionally odd -- exceptions. The good news is that these cars are still very good buys because you can get a lot of car for your money. The bad news is that some of these cars now have a market value that is so low that many buyers will not be able to justify the cost of fixing anything that goes wrong because the repairs may cost more than the car is worth." With respect to the 944 Turbo, Mr. Anderson wrote: "The (944) Turbo developed 220 horsepower and 243 lb-ft of torque at 3500 rpm. The 944 Turbo had stunning performance for a four-cylinder car, topping out at 162 mph, achieving 0-60 mph times of 5.7 seconds, and flashing through the quarter-mile in 13.5 seconds. Aerodynamics were improved with a new polyurethane front bumper/spoiler with new air inlets for the intercooler, engine cooling, and brakes. New underbody panels cleaned up passing air below the car. There was also a diffuser mounted under the rear of the car to clean up and direct the airflow in that area. The Turbo had the same four-piston Brembo brake calipers used on the 1986 928. The Turbo was improved every year it was in production. Anti-lock brakes and airbags were added for 1987. The Porsche 944 Turbo was the first sports car to offer airbags for both the driver and passenger." In summation, Mr. Anderson wrote: "Standard 944 Turbos are also desirable cars and are now old enough that their resale values can make them good buys considering their performance envelope. 944 Turbos range from a low of around $6,400 for a rough early car to as much as $15,113 for an excellent later 1988 Turbo S or 1989 Turbo. For the price, the 944 Turbo offers more bang for the buck than any other Porsche model. You will still see some of these cars advertised for as much as $20,000, but even with all of their extra goodies, I doubt anyone is getting that kind of money, even for the really good examples."

As for Mr. Martin's statement that the 924 was a "crappy car" and that "nothing Porsche did to improve the later models could save them from ridicule by association," I suggest he consider the following. In 1980, Porsche entered three 924 GTRs in the GTP class at LeMans. Although two of the cars suffered burned exhaust valves, they still finished 12th and 13th overall. The remaining car finished 6th overall. The next year, the 924 GTR was again entered at LeMans, this time with a turbocharged, twin-cam version of the soon to be released 944's engine. That car finished 7th overall, and was presented with an award for having spent the least amount of time in the pits. Finally, Derek Bell (a name that Mr. Martin may not recognize based on his apparent lack of Porsche knowledge -- hint, he won LeMans five times) has parked one of these unworthy-of-the-name Porsches in his garage as he owns a 924 Carrera GTS.

Finally, I hope Mr. Martin can refer me to a lawyer that concentrates on automobile related litigation as I'd like to sue the person who sold me a fake Porsche. My 1988 944 Turbo says "Porsche" ten times on the exterior -- once on each wheel, twice on the rear end (the spoiler and the panel above the rear bumper), once on each door handle, and again on the on the nose. It even says "Porsche" on the airbag cover in the center of the steering wheel. To make matters worse, the obviously counterfeit owner's manual refers to my car as a Porsche. And, would you believe that the original owner even had the gall to claim to have taken delivery of this car at the Porsche factory in Stuttgart, Germany? The nerve! Please let me know when Mr. Martin will be available for a deposition, as my attorney will likely want to take advantage of his vast knowledge of the marque in an effort to bolster my case and to help me determine just what kind of car I really bought.

In any case, please extend to Mr. Martin the thanks of all owners of non-rear-engined so-called Porsches for enlightening us and alerting us to the real reason for the ridicule and lack of respect shown to me at Porsche club meetings. Maybe I should try the SCCA?

Sincerely,
Chris R.

P.S. In the interest of irritating and isolating all Porsche owners, Autoweek might wish to consider asking Mr. Martin to raise the question of whether "real" 911s can be watercooled next time a 996 goes across the auction block.

mcavour

Chris,
Did the editor respond to your letter? I also e-mailed a letter and got no response... I was not surprised, given the caliber of the people that work at Autoweek...

Mongo

find his address so i can go shove a balance shaft up his fat *** <img src="graemlins/cussing.gif" border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" />

<img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" />

Doug944s2

No doubt in my mind that the 924/944/968 series are all true Porsches. The 924 was developed entirely by Porsche, albeit using as many Audi-VW parts as possible, and built in Audi's factory in Neckarsulm. No less than Helmuth Bott, director of Porsche R&D, was in charge of developing the rear transaxle layout that's shared with the 928...and decided to put the clutch up front based on Alfa's problems with torsional vibration with rear-mounted clutches. Nearly all the testing was done at Weissach, with 924s no doubt rolling over the same hallowed ground as the 911s that came before.

C'mon, the original Gmund coupe was a hot-rodded Volkswagen, and the 911 continues the basic philosophy laid down by Ferdinand Porsche's humble Beetle...taken to the extreme.

Roughly half the Boxsters are built in Finland, undoubtedly using a lot of parts and subsystems not of German manufacture. Does this mean it's not a true Porsche? Absolutely not.

Who needs the elitists? And no, the 944 is not a great collectible in the sense it will appreciate wildly in value. They're fantastic used sports-car bargains. We buy them and repair them because we like the way they look and handle, and they're more satisfying to drive than 95% of modern production cars today.

Tom R.

contact Mr. Martin at sportscarmarket.com. check out his website he and his writers really do know their stuff.

You guys are looking at it from the wrong perspective.

user 8430

If front engine water cooled Porsche vehicles, are not a "real" Porsche, I would be interested in knowing which manufacturer made the 928 GTS that was, I think the fastest top speed production vehicle in '95 at 171+ mph or something to that effect, because they should be proud of their accomplishment. We should add to these letters that they are not only dissing the 924/944/968 series, but also the 928. Tell me that Porsche didn't have a lot of R&D in that vehicle ove the years.

Mongo

All i can say to our new friend is....SUCK IT TREBEK! <img src="graemlins/cussing.gif" border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" /> That looks like a Porsche to me setting the land speed record in 1986. And if he doesn't believe us I'd be much obliged to take him for a ride up to 171 miles an hour on a highway and make him sh*t his pants.

<img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" />