Fixn2xlr8

AWD I will give ya. I wouldnt mind having a WRX myself. Point is that there isnt a FWD HIGH performance car out that I know of. FWD has a place in the world, hands down its a less expencive setup. Plenty of mods for rice cars lots to make em louder, plenty of stickers, plastic and the like, just no supercars. Nothing wrong having a neon green lawn mower with 20" rims and a 7 foot wing across the back, just leave with the understanding that its going to be hell trying to figure out which one is yours in the Walmart parking lot.

shadowboy

i believe that opinions like that (and again, i am merely stating my own opinion here) are born out of the mentality of the 60s/70s when FWD was just coming around and was still new technology and has worked around

look at some showroom stock racing results and the success of the mini.

FWD can be a plenty capable high performance platform. of course under high hp situations like supercars its not ideal due to the traction limitations. but from a handling/fun-to-drive standpoint, FWD can be EVERY bit as good as RWD.

i thoroughly enjoy driving every well-handling fwd or RWD car i drive.. whether its my integra, my gf's SE-R, my mom's civic, our 240SX, our porsche, etc, etc.

cale

Some of the cops in the states are complaining about FWD on the Impalas that they are getting as new cars, but from what little anecdotal evidence I hear none of them have really complained once they just got used to the feel of a different car. I would have to agree that with the level of engineering that goes into most cars (I'm sure some American cars even have a little bit of thought put into their engineering considerations) the modern FWDs from a respectable firm that aren't econobox pieces of crap are probably going to be reasonably stable at most any speed. Personally I prefer a RWD ride, but each has their place and I wouldn't be quick to judge a car by its drive layout. Now how the weight balance is on a car that has nothing for drive hardware going towards the rear wheels is probably interesting. Does anyone have any weight distribution info on some of these FWD cars? I would think it would be hard to get some weight over the rear wheels (ignoring the super-size wing) to keep the handling neutral when things get interesting. Also I know some of the higher powered Saabs had problems with torque steer when the turbo kicked in so I wonder if that is present in these cars as well, is there even a way to get rid of it?

Jeff

shadowboy

torque steer is an issue on cars with a lot of torque, poor suspension geometry and unequal length driveshafts (none of these are an issue on any reasonably well-designed FWD car).

for example, my integra has equal length halfshafts and 103ft-lbs of torque at peak (5500rpm). torque steer is nonexistant on the car.

the 200sx has 132ft-lbs at peak (4800rpm). and it will wander under hard throttle, but thats more due to the viscous LSD "hunting" for traction than torque steer

a typical FWD has a weight distribution around 60/40 (basically a 911 in reverse). ive seen up to 65/35, but never really anything with less than 60% of the weight up front.

there are ways of tweaking that.

for example, you could tilt the engine backwards, give the car a very short front overhang and a longer rear overhang to bias the weight more towards the rear.

shortening the front overhang also has the added benefit of reducing the front polar moment of inertia, thereby making turn-in response more crisp.

cale

To be honest on the torque steer Saabs I was thinking of the 93 Viggen which has 258 lb-ft of torque. I read a review in which they commented on the torque steer being significant. Is that a Saab problem engineering problem, or is there nothing to be done when putting that much torque down. I can't say I know alot about the saab, I was just interested because it is a rather high hp car in FWD configuration.

Jeff

Geo

[quote]Originally posted by cale:
<strong>Now how the weight balance is on a car that has nothing for drive hardware going towards the rear wheels is probably interesting. Does anyone have any weight distribution info on some of these FWD cars? I would think it would be hard to get some weight over the rear wheels (ignoring the super-size wing) to keep the handling neutral when things get interesting.</strong><hr></blockquote>

From a practical standpoint, you set them up and drive them a bit differently. This first came to my attention around the time I bought my 76 Scirocco. At that time Tom Davey (Davy?) was 3x SCCA GT3 champ with a Scirocco and it was the first time he raced a FWD car. Basically, what he said and what has stuck is that the rear wheels are just along for the ride.

You still have to contend with understeer/oversteer, but it's not quite the same as with a RWD car. Also, with a good chassis it can be quite forgiving (and I don't mean just a safe understeer out of a corner) and you can muscle them around once you are used to them. You have to remember that 90% of your concern is with the front tires. Everything of consequence happens there. Last time out in the ITS SE-R I had a car that I would trail brake slightly - enough to get the tail to rotate around and then apply the throttle for a nice 4 wheel drift to the exit.

You just have to alter your thinking a bit with FWD. It's been years since I've driven any RWD car hard and I'm going to have to do some relearning when I get my 944 on the track.

d richard

This "wing" discussion reminds me of the ricer I saw the other day on the highway. Huge wing on the trunk mounted UPSIDE DOWN. Yes I checked twice and it was upside down. I kept waiting for the back tires to come off the ground!!

Deepice

I actualy saw a CRX at the drag strip that had wheelie bars.

but it did turn a preaty good time. those gerbals must have been runing a like mad on those little tread mills

Geo

[quote]Originally posted by deepice:
<strong>I actualy saw a CRX at the drag strip that had wheelie bars.

but it did turn a preaty good time. those gerbals must have been runing a like mad on those little tread mills</strong><hr></blockquote>

Actually, the wheelie bars are used to keep the load on the front tires. Some classes still allow you to preload the wheelie bars.

BTW, they apparently work very well.

Deepice

Honda's at the drag strip..... It just seams that there is nothing sacred anymore.

nib5

[quote] Honda's at the drag strip..... It just seams that there is nothing sacred anymore. <hr></blockquote>

I keep waiting to see a post from a meatball claiming Porsches suck "'cuz ah keep gettin' ma tail whupped at thuh Tractor Pull"

Fixn2xlr8

I've seen Hondas at the drag strip turning some good times too. The wheelie bars would make sense to keep the fronts on the ground I guess. Face it guys, times have changed. Rice cars are gona be even more popular when the next generation of adolescent car movies come out. We might even see a turbo charged 2 cycle something or another. No nitrous, just add a bit or oil to the gas is all.

FormulaOne10

I guess I missed the introduction of FWD into CART, F1 and NASCAR... Those teams must not know that FWD is every bit as competent and RWD. Wow, they are really behind the times!!!

Doug944s2

Those wheelie bars on the front-drivers are a real crutch...allow them to effectively extend the wheelbase by 6-7 feet, so the weight transfer off the front tires is reduced considerably.

But fat fronts and skinny rears just look so wrong!!!!

Robby

Wow! No one even cussed me for the excessive length of my eariler response:-)


Geo-

Thanks for the info- I knew there HAD to be more FWD's w/LSD- I forgot about the SE-R, but was unaware of the others...

Shawn-
__________________________________________________

in other words every integra has equal length halfshafts and hence no torque steer whatsoever...
__________________________________________________

True, and it REALLY helped, but I don't think it COMPLETELY eliminated TQ-steer- do you? I always thought I could feel some in my Integra (very lightly) but I may somehow be mistaken...

__________________________________________________

autocross the integra...the 1st gen integras are VERY controllable and VERY easy to drive at the limit...it is quite twitchy but...
__________________________________________________

I agree, in an AUTO-X environment, but on the street, in longer, more high-speed-type sweepers, I would disagree, based on MY experience- they were very good handling cars, but I didn't feel comfortable getting too intense in them- of course, I guess I shouldn't have done so much of that crap on the streets anyway...
__________________________________________________

this counter steering issue is exactly how you would handle oversteer on a RWD car
__________________________________________________

I've always understood that you're supposed to lightly reduce throttle and gently COUNTERSTEER when oversteering RWD- NOT keep the wheels pointed the SAME way- maybe you were taught differently and/or have had more track experience (sounds like it) allowing you to experiment w/different techniques...


Jeff-
__________________________________________________

Some of the cops in the states are complaining about FWD on the Impalas
__________________________________________________

I knew we'd hear some complaints about that! But, just like I said- it's interesting that many of the Autobahn cops PREFER FWD cars...


Shawn-
__________________________________________________

you could tilt the engine backwards, give the car a very short front overhang and a longer rear overhang to bias the weight more towards the rear.

shortening the front overhang also has the added benefit of reducing polar moment of inertia, thereby making turn-in response more crisp.
__________________________________________________

I had always wondered if the engine could be adjusted like that to aid weight distribution. But, if it reduces polar moment of inertia TOO much, it could be VERY dangerous. I like the relatively high polar moment of inertia of our cars- they like to keep their direction- sure, they're more difficult to rotate, but that can be dealt with- I guess it depends on personal experience, etc and what the car's being used for. For street use, I'd be afraid to have 100's of thousands of people out there w/FWD cars that rotate faster than mid-engine designs...

Jeff-

I've been very intersted in the Viggens b/c of their high HP/TQ levels too- I was hoping to hear that they had LSD, but I don't think so(?). That might be a cool car to get (convertible?) and add a Quaife- of course, for $40K+, you could probably do better- I DO think they are VERY interesting cars- unique too...