944na vs riceracers
07-28-2002, 03:11 AM
#91
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Tabor-
Yeah, I was speaking in terms of test (actual) weight- curb's always some 150lbs lower. I think in terms of worst case scenarios, but like Shawn said, he likes to compare curbs- to each his own I guess- I just like to think in terms of what the car will weigh when I actually drive it- minus the driver to keep things consistent. Like my Turbo S tipped the scales at 3160lbs when I weighed it...
Shawn-
The '86/'87 Integra had the same gearing but a slightly shorter 5th- it would redline 5th at just over 130 (if it would hit 7000, but it's redline was slightly lower), whereas '88/'89 would hit 139.something- just a HAIR under 140 (again, assuming it could reach it's redline). Also, you said something about the '86/'87 having a much longer TQ band- not in any of the ones I've been in- I owned an '87 and then an '89.
The '87's were listed as:
FD: 4.21
5th: .85
TQ: 99 @ 5500
HP: 113 @ 6250
redline 6800
The '89's were listed as:
FD: 4.21
5th: .82
TQ: 103 @ 5500
HP: 118 @ 6500
redline: 7000
Those are some of the shortest peak to peak power bands I've heard of in any car, although the little Integras did better than their stats would make one think....
Anyway, R&T tested an '89 and listed it's actual weight as 2580- that's one of several reasons why I say the later ones were higher- I have a test on a GSR that shows 2780- I thought it was a little higher than that, but oh well...
Yeah, I was speaking in terms of test (actual) weight- curb's always some 150lbs lower. I think in terms of worst case scenarios, but like Shawn said, he likes to compare curbs- to each his own I guess- I just like to think in terms of what the car will weigh when I actually drive it- minus the driver to keep things consistent. Like my Turbo S tipped the scales at 3160lbs when I weighed it...
Shawn-
The '86/'87 Integra had the same gearing but a slightly shorter 5th- it would redline 5th at just over 130 (if it would hit 7000, but it's redline was slightly lower), whereas '88/'89 would hit 139.something- just a HAIR under 140 (again, assuming it could reach it's redline). Also, you said something about the '86/'87 having a much longer TQ band- not in any of the ones I've been in- I owned an '87 and then an '89.
The '87's were listed as:
FD: 4.21
5th: .85
TQ: 99 @ 5500
HP: 113 @ 6250
redline 6800
The '89's were listed as:
FD: 4.21
5th: .82
TQ: 103 @ 5500
HP: 118 @ 6500
redline: 7000
Those are some of the shortest peak to peak power bands I've heard of in any car, although the little Integras did better than their stats would make one think....
Anyway, R&T tested an '89 and listed it's actual weight as 2580- that's one of several reasons why I say the later ones were higher- I have a test on a GSR that shows 2780- I thought it was a little higher than that, but oh well...
09-30-2004, 10:11 PM
#101
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[QUOTE=shadowboy][quote]Originally posted by dave120:
<strong>The huge wings the ricers use are purely because they think it looks cool and I've never come across one that actually knew what real purpose the wing served. They all think it keeps the car stable at high speeds. Sure, but Nascar uses like a 3" lip on the back and that seems to keep them plenty stable at 190+ mph. Those huge wings I can't see them doing anything but adding drag.</strong><hr></blockquote>
i agree completely.. the lip spoiler on my CRX is as much as i'd ever want. but you forget that a bigger wing is MORE effective than a smaller one at a given speed (meaning if you have the wing angled the wrong way, you could actually get lift). at 190mph you do NOT want a large wing.. you get more drag than you do benefit from it
i'm far from jumping into this debate, but i'd just like to note for the record:
any 'lack of stability' a rwd car will show lends to controllability. the same is true for aircraft - the less stable, the more controllable. i'd rather have the car that i can make do what i want it to do, than one that will fight me to do what IT wants to do. who's driving, really, you or the car? i know i want to be in control!
lots of people say 'the car lost control' when they get into an accident. the problem - the car was in control to begin with... i'm tired of >95% of americans being left seat passengers while on the road with me.
i vote RWD, simply because it is better for ME.
-Mike-
<strong>The huge wings the ricers use are purely because they think it looks cool and I've never come across one that actually knew what real purpose the wing served. They all think it keeps the car stable at high speeds. Sure, but Nascar uses like a 3" lip on the back and that seems to keep them plenty stable at 190+ mph. Those huge wings I can't see them doing anything but adding drag.</strong><hr></blockquote>
i agree completely.. the lip spoiler on my CRX is as much as i'd ever want. but you forget that a bigger wing is MORE effective than a smaller one at a given speed (meaning if you have the wing angled the wrong way, you could actually get lift). at 190mph you do NOT want a large wing.. you get more drag than you do benefit from it
<strong>My biggest problem is accepting that FWD really has a purpose other than being cheaper to produce. They don't need a driveshaft or anything so it's less weight I guess..and less metal so it'd be cheaper. But is there some handling advantage to them? Because that's what the rice guys I know claim is that FWD handles better. I don't believe that, but I don't claim to know all either. I don't see how it possibly could be though, especially for racing purposes. Fill me in if I'm way off and missing something...</strong><hr></blockquote>
FWD is not necessarily cheaper to produce. in fact, it is more expensive to engineer than RWD. the fact, however, is that FWD is better for the average idiot driver. it is MUCH, MUCH more difficult to get yourself into trouble with an FWD car. its almost idiot-proof, compared to, well RWD.
RWD car may have more tractability under acceleration & uphill than FWD, but they do not have as much directional stability. as an example, watch the rear of a powerful RWD vehicle under acceleration.. especially one with an open differential and not a lot of balance (the more torque the merrier for this demonstration too)
you will see the backend fishtailing left and right with even the slightest change in pavement.
front wheel drive cars do not exhibit this behavior as the rest of the car "falls in line" behind the driving wheels.
SAFETY, and PACKAGING (more cargo room) are the main reasons why FWD is predominant. not costs.
FWD is not necessarily cheaper to produce. in fact, it is more expensive to engineer than RWD. the fact, however, is that FWD is better for the average idiot driver. it is MUCH, MUCH more difficult to get yourself into trouble with an FWD car. its almost idiot-proof, compared to, well RWD.
RWD car may have more tractability under acceleration & uphill than FWD, but they do not have as much directional stability. as an example, watch the rear of a powerful RWD vehicle under acceleration.. especially one with an open differential and not a lot of balance (the more torque the merrier for this demonstration too)
you will see the backend fishtailing left and right with even the slightest change in pavement.
front wheel drive cars do not exhibit this behavior as the rest of the car "falls in line" behind the driving wheels.
SAFETY, and PACKAGING (more cargo room) are the main reasons why FWD is predominant. not costs.
any 'lack of stability' a rwd car will show lends to controllability. the same is true for aircraft - the less stable, the more controllable. i'd rather have the car that i can make do what i want it to do, than one that will fight me to do what IT wants to do. who's driving, really, you or the car? i know i want to be in control!
lots of people say 'the car lost control' when they get into an accident. the problem - the car was in control to begin with... i'm tired of >95% of americans being left seat passengers while on the road with me.
i vote RWD, simply because it is better for ME.
-Mike-
09-30-2004, 10:50 PM
#103
Race Director
" 944na vs riceracers"
I think this comes down to a matter of probabilities and statistics. There are very few hot-rodded 944NAs out there except for the occasional V8 conversion. However, amongst the ricers, it's not uncommon to have all-motor cars with 250hp+. I just ran across one yesterday that was stripped out to less than 2000lbs with a really built motor. Does high 9s/low 10s in the 1/4-mile... Time to put a bigger turbo in the 951 and turn up the boost...
I think this comes down to a matter of probabilities and statistics. There are very few hot-rodded 944NAs out there except for the occasional V8 conversion. However, amongst the ricers, it's not uncommon to have all-motor cars with 250hp+. I just ran across one yesterday that was stripped out to less than 2000lbs with a really built motor. Does high 9s/low 10s in the 1/4-mile... Time to put a bigger turbo in the 951 and turn up the boost...
09-30-2004, 11:08 PM
#104
lol, sorry everyone, i was pointed to these forums by clark of clark's garage looking for some help with go-kart building/information. Searched forums for anything already here and, found this and got to reading it. Thought it was interesting.
but, hey, TheStig, i live in poway, i use to live in chula vista. Your right in my backyard, or maybe front, but yeah, hi. (that chick in your profile is hot, hope it isnt your wife... or, actually that wouldnt be bad. But, do you have any more of her? id like to use some pictures of her for my wall paper. thanks)
but, hey, TheStig, i live in poway, i use to live in chula vista. Your right in my backyard, or maybe front, but yeah, hi. (that chick in your profile is hot, hope it isnt your wife... or, actually that wouldnt be bad. But, do you have any more of her? id like to use some pictures of her for my wall paper. thanks)
09-30-2004, 11:15 PM
#105
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Originally Posted by Kesepton
but, hey, TheStig, i live in poway, i use to live in chula vista. Your right in my backyard, or maybe front, but yeah, hi. (that chick in your profile is hot, hope it isnt your wife... or, actually that wouldnt be bad. But, do you have any more of her? id like to use some pictures of her for my wall paper. thanks)
Yea she is hot, I can only wish she was my wife 
If she was, you definitely know why I wouldn't be on right now...heh heh heh... 
If you look up Shell grid girls somewhere I"m sure you'll find plenty of pix of her.Anyways, lets keep this memory going with no surrender
