How to adjust pedals for proper heal toe downshifting? (long)
01-29-2003, 10:38 AM
#1
Racer
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How to adjust pedals for proper heal toe downshifting? (long)
Some history:
I have installed aluminum pedals on the clutch and brake. Since I have normal (wife says small) feet (size 10) I moved the brake pedal over toward the gas pedal so I could roll my foot over to blip the throttle.
During a DE event, my brake pedal dropped quite a bit, making downshifting difficult. I went to SS flexible lines, replaced the master cylinder, and added a 33/5 proportioning valve. The pedal feels the way I would think it should feel now, and is higher up.
The problem is under hard braking I hit the gas a bit (spin the motor to about 5k) WITHOUT even rolling my foot. So I need to raise the brake pedal or lower the throttle pedal. Is there any way to adjust the throttle pedal? Adding the aluminum throttle pedal would raise it too high obviously so I left it off. I'm locking up the rears under heavy braking when downshifting because with the motor at ~5k I break the rear end loose when letting off the clutch, and since I'm on the brakes and traction has been broken they lock up. At least that's the theory...haven't done any hard straight line braking since the brake work b/c I was hoping to break in the new front pads a bit. It's hard to drive that way!
Sorry for all the background, but the main questions is is there any way to adjust the throttle pedal to a lower position? TIA
I have installed aluminum pedals on the clutch and brake. Since I have normal (wife says small) feet (size 10) I moved the brake pedal over toward the gas pedal so I could roll my foot over to blip the throttle.
During a DE event, my brake pedal dropped quite a bit, making downshifting difficult. I went to SS flexible lines, replaced the master cylinder, and added a 33/5 proportioning valve. The pedal feels the way I would think it should feel now, and is higher up.
The problem is under hard braking I hit the gas a bit (spin the motor to about 5k) WITHOUT even rolling my foot. So I need to raise the brake pedal or lower the throttle pedal. Is there any way to adjust the throttle pedal? Adding the aluminum throttle pedal would raise it too high obviously so I left it off. I'm locking up the rears under heavy braking when downshifting because with the motor at ~5k I break the rear end loose when letting off the clutch, and since I'm on the brakes and traction has been broken they lock up. At least that's the theory...haven't done any hard straight line braking since the brake work b/c I was hoping to break in the new front pads a bit. It's hard to drive that way!
Sorry for all the background, but the main questions is is there any way to adjust the throttle pedal to a lower position? TIA
01-29-2003, 11:12 AM
#2
Race Director
I have found that the pedals are fine in stock location for heel and toe.
I have 10.5 to 11 (depends on shoe style) foot and have not had a problem. I do use the big toe ball area of my foot on the brake and outer portion of the foot to roll on to the gas. Interstingly this works better under hard braking as then the brake pedal and the gas are about at the same height. Under light braking the gas pedal is still below the brake making a good blip hard.
My advice is move the brake pedal farther away from the gas. You might have moved it too far.
<img border="0" alt="[byebye]" title="" src="graemlins/wave.gif" />
I have 10.5 to 11 (depends on shoe style) foot and have not had a problem. I do use the big toe ball area of my foot on the brake and outer portion of the foot to roll on to the gas. Interstingly this works better under hard braking as then the brake pedal and the gas are about at the same height. Under light braking the gas pedal is still below the brake making a good blip hard.
My advice is move the brake pedal farther away from the gas. You might have moved it too far.
<img border="0" alt="[byebye]" title="" src="graemlins/wave.gif" />
01-29-2003, 11:34 AM
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M758-
I only moved it over about 1/4"...before adding the aluminum pedal I would roll and miss the throttle, or if I moved my foot over enough I would have difficulty maintaining good control of brake application due to such a small contact area with the brake pedal. I guess my brake pedal is slightly lower than yours as under hard braking the brake pedal is slightly below the throttle. I want it to be the other way around.
I only moved it over about 1/4"...before adding the aluminum pedal I would roll and miss the throttle, or if I moved my foot over enough I would have difficulty maintaining good control of brake application due to such a small contact area with the brake pedal. I guess my brake pedal is slightly lower than yours as under hard braking the brake pedal is slightly below the throttle. I want it to be the other way around.
01-29-2003, 12:47 PM
#4
Race Director
I have a set of Vosstech track pedals installed in my car (clutch, brake and wide-throttle pedal). The nice thing about the Vosstech throttle pedal is that it has a wide 'lip' at the bottom of the pedal. As I experience some brake fade, I find I can use this portion of the throttle without really changing my technique. These pedals have really helped me learn heel-and-toe.
I use the traditional heel-and-toe method M758 explained.
I have also heard of another technique for heel and toe in a 944, and that is to rotate your toes towareds the inside of the car and blip the throttle with the top of your foot, while the ball of your foot remains on the brake. Perhaps that may work better for you, but in my case, I have found that I cannot apply consistent braking force with the foot so far up in the air.
And take all I say with a grain of salt: while I am able to heel-and-toe smoothly at times, I am not yet consistent. JLeake: I know what you mean by revving the motor up to 5k rpms!
-Z-man.
I use the traditional heel-and-toe method M758 explained.
I have also heard of another technique for heel and toe in a 944, and that is to rotate your toes towareds the inside of the car and blip the throttle with the top of your foot, while the ball of your foot remains on the brake. Perhaps that may work better for you, but in my case, I have found that I cannot apply consistent braking force with the foot so far up in the air.
And take all I say with a grain of salt: while I am able to heel-and-toe smoothly at times, I am not yet consistent. JLeake: I know what you mean by revving the motor up to 5k rpms!
-Z-man.
01-30-2003, 02:28 AM
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You can also use heel-toe to keep neutral front to rear balance in corners, you hold some throttle to keep the weight from transfering to the front and hold the brakes to keep the weight from transfering to the rear. It helps keep the corner speeds, mainly keeps weight foreward on the steering wheels to maintain steering while throttleing out of the corners. I know the theory, but need to learn to apply it.
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01-30-2003, 03:02 AM
#8
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I also hear of people using heel-toe to spool up the turbo mid corner for exit. I doubt fighting the brakes with the gas is good for the car though. Just my 2 krone.
01-30-2003, 04:06 AM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by nine-44:
<strong>You can also use heel-toe to keep neutral front to rear balance in corners, you hold some throttle to keep the weight from transfering to the front and hold the brakes to keep the weight from transfering to the rear. It helps keep the corner speeds, mainly keeps weight foreward on the steering wheels to maintain steering while throttleing out of the corners. I know the theory, but need to learn to apply it.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I am not an expert, but that sounds more like left foot braking. I believe you use the heal-toe technique to apply the brakes while double clutching (and shifting) before a corner.
Double clutching is when you press the clutch in, put the transmission in neutral, let the clutch out, blip the throttle, put the clutch back in, then select your desired gear. This increases synchro life and reduces shift time.
<strong>You can also use heel-toe to keep neutral front to rear balance in corners, you hold some throttle to keep the weight from transfering to the front and hold the brakes to keep the weight from transfering to the rear. It helps keep the corner speeds, mainly keeps weight foreward on the steering wheels to maintain steering while throttleing out of the corners. I know the theory, but need to learn to apply it.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I am not an expert, but that sounds more like left foot braking. I believe you use the heal-toe technique to apply the brakes while double clutching (and shifting) before a corner.
Double clutching is when you press the clutch in, put the transmission in neutral, let the clutch out, blip the throttle, put the clutch back in, then select your desired gear. This increases synchro life and reduces shift time.
01-30-2003, 10:31 AM
#10
Race Director
Tabor: I believe your assessment is correct regarding nine-44's quote: it sounds like left-foot-braking, not heel-and-toe downshifting.
The main purpose of heel-and-toe is to shift down a gear without upsetting the balance of the car. Heel-and-toe has NOTHING to do with slowing the car down. Your downshift, whether you can heel-and-toe or not, should ALWAYS be complete before the turn-in point: NEVER downshift mid-corner!
If you have a blindfolded person sitting next to you, they shouldn't even notice that you've shifted down a gear. Why be so smooth? If you don't heel and toe, and match the revs with the car speed, you can easily loose traction as the driving wheels, and thus loose control of the car. (Not a good thing just before a corner!)
Here's an example: you're scooting along the front straight of say, Lime Rock, at 110mph at 6000rpms in 4th gear. You enter the braking zone, and apply braking forces, dropping your speed to, say, 75mph, with the revs at around 4,000rpms in 4th gear. Now: if you shift without heel-and-toe, this is what happens: push in the clutch, the revs drop down to 1000 rpms, the speed is now around 55-60mph, and you grab another gear, and let out the clutch. What happens? Revs jump to 3500 rpms, and your wheels will try to travel at a slower rate of revolution! No matter how fast you try to shift, your revs will drop without blipping the throttle!
Now: same process, but with heel-and-toe: what happens is as you push in the clutch, you also blip the throttle while still applying braking forces. If your target rev is 3500rpms, then you rev up to 4000rpms, and 'catch' the revs at 3500rpms when you disengage the clutch. What happens? If done right, you won't feel any other forces acting on your car other than the braking forces that you started before the heel-and-toe process.
BTW: There are some who believe downshifting (without heel and toe) is a great way to slow down: that it saves your brakes. Well tell me: why put wear and tear on an expensive component of a car (the clutch and tranny), instead of using a disposable and cheap (brake pads and rotors) component?! Don't downshift to slow down: it may sound cool, with the motor revving up and all, but that cool sound will be followed by the sound of your hard earned cash flying away! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
Sorry for the long post.
-Zoltan.
The main purpose of heel-and-toe is to shift down a gear without upsetting the balance of the car. Heel-and-toe has NOTHING to do with slowing the car down. Your downshift, whether you can heel-and-toe or not, should ALWAYS be complete before the turn-in point: NEVER downshift mid-corner!
If you have a blindfolded person sitting next to you, they shouldn't even notice that you've shifted down a gear. Why be so smooth? If you don't heel and toe, and match the revs with the car speed, you can easily loose traction as the driving wheels, and thus loose control of the car. (Not a good thing just before a corner!)
Here's an example: you're scooting along the front straight of say, Lime Rock, at 110mph at 6000rpms in 4th gear. You enter the braking zone, and apply braking forces, dropping your speed to, say, 75mph, with the revs at around 4,000rpms in 4th gear. Now: if you shift without heel-and-toe, this is what happens: push in the clutch, the revs drop down to 1000 rpms, the speed is now around 55-60mph, and you grab another gear, and let out the clutch. What happens? Revs jump to 3500 rpms, and your wheels will try to travel at a slower rate of revolution! No matter how fast you try to shift, your revs will drop without blipping the throttle!
Now: same process, but with heel-and-toe: what happens is as you push in the clutch, you also blip the throttle while still applying braking forces. If your target rev is 3500rpms, then you rev up to 4000rpms, and 'catch' the revs at 3500rpms when you disengage the clutch. What happens? If done right, you won't feel any other forces acting on your car other than the braking forces that you started before the heel-and-toe process.
BTW: There are some who believe downshifting (without heel and toe) is a great way to slow down: that it saves your brakes. Well tell me: why put wear and tear on an expensive component of a car (the clutch and tranny), instead of using a disposable and cheap (brake pads and rotors) component?! Don't downshift to slow down: it may sound cool, with the motor revving up and all, but that cool sound will be followed by the sound of your hard earned cash flying away! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
Sorry for the long post.
-Zoltan.
01-30-2003, 12:08 PM
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JLeake- There is an adjustment screw on the back side of the gas pedal should be plastic. Near the top of pedal mounted to the firewall. I don't know if this will give you the adjustment you need. The brake pedal I believe has an adjustment also to reduce free play and travel distance. Hope this helps! GL! Dallas
01-30-2003, 12:20 PM
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Cool maybe I can take out a little free play in the brake pedal assuming I'm still within the reccomended tolerances. I know I should just go mess with this myself and figure it out...but I've been extremely busy and temporarily banned from the garage due to all the Porsche wrenching I've been doing lately. I was hoping it was a no brainer that other people had already done. Thanks.
02-11-2003, 12:05 PM
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Turned out to be too much free play in the brake pedal. I took out about 3/8 of an inch and it feels awesome! Jacked the car up to ensure brakes weren't dragging. The pedal now feels 'right' and is in the right place for heal-toe. I was actually able to install the aluminum throttle pedal as well. Woo hoo! Now that I've finally got this car more or less in order it is a blast to drive.
