Dyno day Results! (The one @ Deman in NY)
06-29-2003, 12:23 PM
#31
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 1,049
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
sorry guys, better late than never with the pics. just a bunch of shots of cars around the shop and a few being dynoed
<img src="http://dualblade.t35.com:8000/dynoday/DSC02334.jpg" alt=" - " />
<img src="http://dualblade.t35.com:8000/dynoday/DSC02335.jpg" alt=" - " />
<img src="http://dualblade.t35.com:8000/dynoday/DSC02336.jpg" alt=" - " />
<img src="http://dualblade.t35.com:8000/dynoday/DSC02337.jpg" alt=" - " />
<img src="http://dualblade.t35.com:8000/dynoday/DSC02339.jpg" alt=" - " />
<img src="http://dualblade.t35.com:8000/dynoday/DSC02334.jpg" alt=" - " />
<img src="http://dualblade.t35.com:8000/dynoday/DSC02335.jpg" alt=" - " />
<img src="http://dualblade.t35.com:8000/dynoday/DSC02336.jpg" alt=" - " />
<img src="http://dualblade.t35.com:8000/dynoday/DSC02337.jpg" alt=" - " />
<img src="http://dualblade.t35.com:8000/dynoday/DSC02339.jpg" alt=" - " />
06-29-2003, 12:24 PM
#32
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 1,049
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
<img src="http://dualblade.t35.com:8000/dynoday/DSC02345.jpg" alt=" - " />
<img src="http://dualblade.t35.com:8000/dynoday/DSC02352.jpg" alt=" - " />
<img src="http://dualblade.t35.com:8000/dynoday/DSC02354.jpg" alt=" - " />
<img src="http://dualblade.t35.com:8000/dynoday/DSC02360.jpg" alt=" - " />
<img src="http://dualblade.t35.com:8000/dynoday/DSC02352.jpg" alt=" - " />
<img src="http://dualblade.t35.com:8000/dynoday/DSC02354.jpg" alt=" - " />
<img src="http://dualblade.t35.com:8000/dynoday/DSC02360.jpg" alt=" - " />
06-29-2003, 12:43 PM
#33
Nordschleife Master
Information about the Dynapack dyno can be found at <a href="http://www.dynapack.com." target="_blank">www.dynapack.com.</a> It is Austrailian made and has an AFR meter sourced from MoTec. When I first converted my car to a stanalone engine management system it was tuned on an engine dyno and recorded 521hp. I later put it on Rick's dyno when he first got it and it put down 444hp. If you use the standard 15% correction factor for Porsche 911 transmissions (444/.85) you get exactly 521hp. I believe this to be a very accurate dyno all the times I've use it. I get repeatable results when I use it.
As for the Red 951, the owner indicated it had a raised revlimit and wanted to take a reading to 7500. I programmed the dyno to run it to 7200 for fear of the low fuel pressure the owner was running.
I thought the white 951 (dan's maybe) it was really nicely done and if I remember rightly, it ran a decent (better than the rest) afr curve after we raised the base fuel pressure, but still had the same characteristic of starting to lean out above 5000rpm.
The one thing that you really get to see is the boost performance of the turbo, how quickly it comes up on boost and if it can hold the boost pressure or if it falls off because it is too small for the deisred boost pressure.
As for the Red 951, the owner indicated it had a raised revlimit and wanted to take a reading to 7500. I programmed the dyno to run it to 7200 for fear of the low fuel pressure the owner was running.
I thought the white 951 (dan's maybe) it was really nicely done and if I remember rightly, it ran a decent (better than the rest) afr curve after we raised the base fuel pressure, but still had the same characteristic of starting to lean out above 5000rpm.
The one thing that you really get to see is the boost performance of the turbo, how quickly it comes up on boost and if it can hold the boost pressure or if it falls off because it is too small for the deisred boost pressure.
06-29-2003, 01:21 PM
#34
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by adrial:
<strong>Bret,
None of the cars that raun guru chips had the stock AFM.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Sorry, I posted this on my way out.
I meant to say ALL of the cars that ran guru chips had the stock AFM.
Geoffrey, here is a stock air/fuel curve from my dyno run with Deman 1 year ago when my 89 944 turbo was bone stock. It's not that pretty...
<img src="http://members.rennlist.com/adrial/dynoAF.jpg" alt=" - " />
The white 951 was John's car (Wormhole on here).
You're right, it did seem to have the best a/f curve of the bunch.
The guru chip equipped cars all hit a lean area around 4k rpm.
The dropping boost curve is characteristic of most modified 944 turbo's running the stock turbo. This is a result of the stock wastegate being weak and like you said, the turbo just not being able to flow enough to make the boost at higher rpm's. John's car had an aftermarket wastegate, so it held boost to redline much better than other cars. Though both of the GURU chips equipped cars I believe had a shimmed wastegate (basically add washers to the wastegate spring, to increase pre-load). My car, on the street (no shimmed wastegate), drops to 12-13psi by redline...
Thanks for answering the dyno related questions, Geoffrey.
Dan, That car is jimbo's car. My car is still at the body shop.
Thanks for the pics Andrew!
Ken, That doesn't sound too bad.
And hey it didn't blow up or slip the clutch...not bad!
As for the 23-25% correction factor, I believe this is too high based on what I've read AND my experience in dynoing my car 1 year ago. My bone stock 951S made 220 lb/ft of torque and 235hp. Using a transmission loss of 15% gives me 258 lb/ft of torque. Which is EXACTLY the factory spec IIRC. If I use 25% I get 293 lb/ft of torque...which is definetely WAY too high.
Glad everybody had a good time!
As soon as I get my car back and sorted out, I'm gonna try to put together another dyno day.
Thanks again for everybody showing up! I was getting a little worried around noon
<strong>Bret,
None of the cars that raun guru chips had the stock AFM.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Sorry, I posted this on my way out.
I meant to say ALL of the cars that ran guru chips had the stock AFM.
Geoffrey, here is a stock air/fuel curve from my dyno run with Deman 1 year ago when my 89 944 turbo was bone stock. It's not that pretty...
<img src="http://members.rennlist.com/adrial/dynoAF.jpg" alt=" - " />
The white 951 was John's car (Wormhole on here).
You're right, it did seem to have the best a/f curve of the bunch.
The guru chip equipped cars all hit a lean area around 4k rpm.
The dropping boost curve is characteristic of most modified 944 turbo's running the stock turbo. This is a result of the stock wastegate being weak and like you said, the turbo just not being able to flow enough to make the boost at higher rpm's. John's car had an aftermarket wastegate, so it held boost to redline much better than other cars. Though both of the GURU chips equipped cars I believe had a shimmed wastegate (basically add washers to the wastegate spring, to increase pre-load). My car, on the street (no shimmed wastegate), drops to 12-13psi by redline...
Thanks for answering the dyno related questions, Geoffrey.
Dan, That car is jimbo's car. My car is still at the body shop.
Thanks for the pics Andrew!
Ken, That doesn't sound too bad.
And hey it didn't blow up or slip the clutch...not bad! As for the 23-25% correction factor, I believe this is too high based on what I've read AND my experience in dynoing my car 1 year ago. My bone stock 951S made 220 lb/ft of torque and 235hp. Using a transmission loss of 15% gives me 258 lb/ft of torque. Which is EXACTLY the factory spec IIRC. If I use 25% I get 293 lb/ft of torque...which is definetely WAY too high.
Glad everybody had a good time!
As soon as I get my car back and sorted out, I'm gonna try to put together another dyno day.
Thanks again for everybody showing up! I was getting a little worried around noon
06-29-2003, 02:09 PM
#35
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: San Diego
Posts: 1,635
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Something does not sound right. A turboS that makes over 300 at the wheels at 17 psi. I have yet to see any 951 with a stock turbo make power like that, ever.........Jimbos car making 267 is the lowest horsepower I have ever seen for those mods running at 20 psi. Apparently it was detonating. I asked Jim about it and he said it didnt. If it did it explains the low horsepower numbers. White smoke is a bad thing and probably means a toasted head gasket.
What was the correction factor set at? What kind of ambient air temps were you guys seeing on the dynos software? I prefer the dynojet over any other type of dyno.The main reason is because everyone uses them and you can compare apples to apples.
What was the correction factor set at? What kind of ambient air temps were you guys seeing on the dynos software? I prefer the dynojet over any other type of dyno.The main reason is because everyone uses them and you can compare apples to apples.
06-29-2003, 02:21 PM
#36
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Westchester Cty, NY
Posts: 140
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It was nice meeting everyone yesterday. I'm looking forward to Adrial's next Dyno Day as I should have my car fully serviced by then and ready to go.
Cheers!
Mike R.
MARS951
Cheers!
Mike R.
MARS951
06-29-2003, 02:26 PM
#37
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: San Diego
Posts: 1,635
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Geoffrey:
<strong>
Jim's car was the most curious and was detonating pretty bad up top which could be seen by the whitish smoke after about 5000rpm. My opinion is that it really needs smaller injectors, higher fuel pressure and some proper computer tuning. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Jims car has the right parts to make 340-360 at the wheels at 18-20 psi on a Dynojet.Ofcourse it needs to be tuned and not detonate to get anywhere close to these numbers.
His injectors are not too big for this application and we would rather run a larger injector with less pressure at the rail. Remember that the fuel pressure will rise with boost pressure and you dont want to exceed 60-70 psi at the rail at any time.
340 (HP) x .55 (BSFC)
_____________________ = 58 lb/hr injector
injectors (4) x .80 (duty cycle)
<strong>
Jim's car was the most curious and was detonating pretty bad up top which could be seen by the whitish smoke after about 5000rpm. My opinion is that it really needs smaller injectors, higher fuel pressure and some proper computer tuning. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Jims car has the right parts to make 340-360 at the wheels at 18-20 psi on a Dynojet.Ofcourse it needs to be tuned and not detonate to get anywhere close to these numbers.
His injectors are not too big for this application and we would rather run a larger injector with less pressure at the rail. Remember that the fuel pressure will rise with boost pressure and you dont want to exceed 60-70 psi at the rail at any time.
340 (HP) x .55 (BSFC)
_____________________ = 58 lb/hr injector
injectors (4) x .80 (duty cycle)
06-29-2003, 02:35 PM
#38
Drifting
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Long Island, New York
Posts: 2,015
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by TurboTim:
<strong>Something does not sound right. A turboS that makes over 300 at the wheels at 17 psi. I have yet to see any 951 with a stock turbo make power like that, ever.........Jimbos car making 267 is the lowest horsepower I have ever seen for those mods running at 20 psi. Apparently it was detonating. I asked Jim about it and he said it didnt. If it did it explains the low horsepower numbers. White smoke is a bad thing and probably means a toasted head gasket.
What was the correction factor set at? What kind of ambient air temps were you guys seeing on the dynos software? I prefer the dynojet over any other type of dyno.The main reason is because everyone uses them and you can compare apples to apples.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Tim, i need to spend like $20k with you, do you guys have a SFR credit card i can apply for?
<strong>Something does not sound right. A turboS that makes over 300 at the wheels at 17 psi. I have yet to see any 951 with a stock turbo make power like that, ever.........Jimbos car making 267 is the lowest horsepower I have ever seen for those mods running at 20 psi. Apparently it was detonating. I asked Jim about it and he said it didnt. If it did it explains the low horsepower numbers. White smoke is a bad thing and probably means a toasted head gasket.
What was the correction factor set at? What kind of ambient air temps were you guys seeing on the dynos software? I prefer the dynojet over any other type of dyno.The main reason is because everyone uses them and you can compare apples to apples.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Tim, i need to spend like $20k with you, do you guys have a SFR credit card i can apply for?
06-29-2003, 05:16 PM
#39
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Tim,
Jim's car was running around 10psi of fuel pressure at idle when it got there...it was turned up to around 16-17. So 20psi of boost + the vacum the car was pulling at idle...that would produce around 35psi of fuel pressure if you add on to the 10psi he saw at idle.
The chips in the car weren't designed to be run with 65# injectors.
A stock turbo'ed car putting out 300hp to the wheels...pretty sure danno or RCLdesign could tell you something about that. You make it sound like it laid down 350 to the wheels when you say "over 300hp to the wheels" It was just barely over, if at all. The power was made at 17.5psi. He had a Lindsey stage 1 IC as well.
Jim's A/F curve was WAY off...up to around 14.5:1 by redline...
He needs chips designed to run with 65# injectors, so that he can run enough fuel pressure to get the fuel he needs up top.
I might add that it takes a trained ear to hear minor detonation...
I dont think 267RWHP is all that unbelievable for Jim's car given the poor state of tune.
I think a ride in his car would have ended the debate though.
Jim's car was running around 10psi of fuel pressure at idle when it got there...it was turned up to around 16-17. So 20psi of boost + the vacum the car was pulling at idle...that would produce around 35psi of fuel pressure if you add on to the 10psi he saw at idle.
The chips in the car weren't designed to be run with 65# injectors.
A stock turbo'ed car putting out 300hp to the wheels...pretty sure danno or RCLdesign could tell you something about that. You make it sound like it laid down 350 to the wheels when you say "over 300hp to the wheels" It was just barely over, if at all. The power was made at 17.5psi. He had a Lindsey stage 1 IC as well.
Jim's A/F curve was WAY off...up to around 14.5:1 by redline...
He needs chips designed to run with 65# injectors, so that he can run enough fuel pressure to get the fuel he needs up top.
I might add that it takes a trained ear to hear minor detonation...
I dont think 267RWHP is all that unbelievable for Jim's car given the poor state of tune.
I think a ride in his car would have ended the debate though.
06-29-2003, 10:38 PM
#40
Banned
Posted by Geoffrey:
Jim's car was the most curious and was detonating pretty bad up top which could be seen by the whitish smoke after about 5000rpm.
I think your talking about TomR with the stage 1 sfr turbo. Tom made equal or higher hp than I but I think his wastegate may have bin stuck closed.
TomR what kind of boost did your dyno run record?
My 951 was put on the dyno right after a 968 and TomR went after me. I am thinking maybe the operator didn't recalculate the gear ratio for a 951.
Jim's car was the most curious and was detonating pretty bad up top which could be seen by the whitish smoke after about 5000rpm.
I think your talking about TomR with the stage 1 sfr turbo. Tom made equal or higher hp than I but I think his wastegate may have bin stuck closed.
TomR what kind of boost did your dyno run record?
My 951 was put on the dyno right after a 968 and TomR went after me. I am thinking maybe the operator didn't recalculate the gear ratio for a 951.
06-29-2003, 10:52 PM
#41
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Jim,
Your car was not put on the dyno after a 968 and TomR definetely did not go before you.
The guy with the SFR stage 1 turbo was Ken, he was put on the dyno after you.
I don't remember who was on the dyno before you, but I can check the video...it may have been Andrew's 944S2.
BTW Geoffrey was the dyno operator as far as I know and I trust 100% that he knew what he was doing.
As for Ken, he thought he may have been having problems with his wastegate...but as the dyno chart I believe shows...it didn't give him any problems. I think he was around 16-17psi...nothing crazy like 20psi.
Your car was not put on the dyno after a 968 and TomR definetely did not go before you.
The guy with the SFR stage 1 turbo was Ken, he was put on the dyno after you.
I don't remember who was on the dyno before you, but I can check the video...it may have been Andrew's 944S2.
BTW Geoffrey was the dyno operator as far as I know and I trust 100% that he knew what he was doing.
As for Ken, he thought he may have been having problems with his wastegate...but as the dyno chart I believe shows...it didn't give him any problems. I think he was around 16-17psi...nothing crazy like 20psi.
06-29-2003, 11:00 PM
#42
Banned
Dan87951
I think your talking about my car.
Yes my car feels stronger than 269rwhp/277ft/lb.
I would say it feels(seat of the pants) 90-100rwhp faster than my ape 18psi chiped 951. That's why I am questioning the dyno/gear ratios.
I think your talking about my car.
Yes my car feels stronger than 269rwhp/277ft/lb.
I would say it feels(seat of the pants) 90-100rwhp faster than my ape 18psi chiped 951. That's why I am questioning the dyno/gear ratios.
06-29-2003, 11:57 PM
#44
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: San Diego
Posts: 1,635
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jim's car was running around 10psi of fuel pressure at idle when it got there...
I have yet to see any 951 with that low of fuel pressure.About the lowest I have been able to get with a billet fuel pressure regualor is about 27 psi or so.
it was turned up to around 16-17.
Again, I have never been able to get that low of a fuel pressure out of one of these cars.
So 20psi of boost + the vacum the car was pulling at idle...that would produce around 35psi of fuel pressure if you add on to the 10psi he saw at idle.
The chips in the car weren't designed to be run with 65# injectors.
He doesnt have 65 lb/hr injectors.
A stock turbo'ed car putting out 300hp to the wheels...pretty sure danno or RCLdesign could tell you something about that.
Oh really? You make it sound like I am an amature;^) I have yet to see this mark broke with a stock turbo. I know people have gotten close but never over this mark especially with the stock barn door in place and the only upgrade being a Lindsey intercooler(and I doubt these are the only upgrades given the boost level that was being run)
You make it sound like it laid down 350 to the wheels when you say "over 300hp to the wheels" It was just barely over, if at all.
The magic mark is 300 at the wheels and I would love to see a dyno chart from a dynojet that shows 300 or more horsepower at the wheels.
The power was made at 17.5psi. He had a Lindsey stage 1 IC as well.
Apparently he must have a set of chips and a way to control the boost too because you can not get this type of boost out of a stock car with stock chips! It will overboost and the overboost protection will kick in. Something sounds fishey here? Could you please give more details about this mysterious turboS car?
Jim's A/F curve was WAY off...up to around 14.5:1 by redline...
He told me that the mixtures were fairly decent and it had no detonation.Given the severity of the detonation that Geoffrey described , it should have been audible to almost everyone with the hood up and people standing over it.
I have yet to see any 951 with that low of fuel pressure.About the lowest I have been able to get with a billet fuel pressure regualor is about 27 psi or so.
it was turned up to around 16-17.
Again, I have never been able to get that low of a fuel pressure out of one of these cars.
So 20psi of boost + the vacum the car was pulling at idle...that would produce around 35psi of fuel pressure if you add on to the 10psi he saw at idle.
The chips in the car weren't designed to be run with 65# injectors.
He doesnt have 65 lb/hr injectors.
A stock turbo'ed car putting out 300hp to the wheels...pretty sure danno or RCLdesign could tell you something about that.
Oh really? You make it sound like I am an amature;^) I have yet to see this mark broke with a stock turbo. I know people have gotten close but never over this mark especially with the stock barn door in place and the only upgrade being a Lindsey intercooler(and I doubt these are the only upgrades given the boost level that was being run)
You make it sound like it laid down 350 to the wheels when you say "over 300hp to the wheels" It was just barely over, if at all.
The magic mark is 300 at the wheels and I would love to see a dyno chart from a dynojet that shows 300 or more horsepower at the wheels.
The power was made at 17.5psi. He had a Lindsey stage 1 IC as well.
Apparently he must have a set of chips and a way to control the boost too because you can not get this type of boost out of a stock car with stock chips! It will overboost and the overboost protection will kick in. Something sounds fishey here? Could you please give more details about this mysterious turboS car?
Jim's A/F curve was WAY off...up to around 14.5:1 by redline...
He told me that the mixtures were fairly decent and it had no detonation.Given the severity of the detonation that Geoffrey described , it should have been audible to almost everyone with the hood up and people standing over it.
06-30-2003, 12:21 AM
#45
Banned
The reason I am doughting the dyno is based on gear ratios. on my gragh it shows 161 mph at 6611 rpms in fourth gear with a gear ratio of 3.490. Last I recall fourth tops out in the 140mph range. I look up the final drive ratio for the 951 and it 3.375. Fourth is 1.0345.