ls1 engine swap
09-05-2008, 06:47 PM
#61
I have not heard from anybody on our board that has busted a tranny with the V8. We think its because the narrow torque band of the 4 cyl just loads the tranny too quick whereas the v8's band is very stable and wide. Theres no shock to the tranny unless we dump clutch. The 4 cylinder is, uh, shocking to the tranny.
Who knows. We have heard of a snapped CV but thats when he let his buddy drive it once. Not sure how it happened.
Who knows. We have heard of a snapped CV but thats when he let his buddy drive it once. Not sure how it happened.
09-05-2008, 08:26 PM
#62
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tonyg's tranny died though.
I will first run 325hp, then 500RWHp, then 6-700RWHP, I will let you know when they start going boom, together with widebody and race application, it should be a good test
anyway, v8's ruuuule
I will first run 325hp, then 500RWHp, then 6-700RWHP, I will let you know when they start going boom, together with widebody and race application, it should be a good test
anyway, v8's ruuuule
09-06-2008, 12:52 PM
#63
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im a little confused because i know nothing about this stuff really...
can anyone answer these questions?
1) what's the difference between a gm and chevy engine?
2) does gm or chevy make the ls series engine?
3) who makes these crate engines? are they just parts from china put together by a 3rd party company that resemble a lsx engine? or are they real lsx engines made by chevy/gm/ford?
4) what's the difference in cost and performance of an lsx engine swap when compared to a vitesse racing state ii that produces about 420hp/tq at the rear wheels and sells for around $3500? it seems that is the best route to go since it can't be any more expensive to strip your 944na down to bare metal and build it back up with a turbo 944 engine with a vitesse kit on it or just to put a 944 turbo engine right in it then put on a vitesse stage ii kit? is it that your practice sane/insane budget limits you to 420hp/tq with the vitesse and the 944 engine? also i see all these japanese cars with 500whp and tiny 1.2L 4 cylinder engines so it seems we could get a lot more from the 944 cheaply if we were more creative, there must not be enough research and development into tuning the 944 since its an old car...
from the crate engine site, the only race lsx engine that compared to the numbers of that vitesse stage ii was the ls3 and the ls3 must cost more than $10k and the ls3's numbers of around 430hp/tq are probably at the crank not the rear wheels like with the vitesse kit...
http://www.gmperformanceparts.com/En...1992&engCat=ls
can anyone answer these questions?
1) what's the difference between a gm and chevy engine?
2) does gm or chevy make the ls series engine?
3) who makes these crate engines? are they just parts from china put together by a 3rd party company that resemble a lsx engine? or are they real lsx engines made by chevy/gm/ford?
4) what's the difference in cost and performance of an lsx engine swap when compared to a vitesse racing state ii that produces about 420hp/tq at the rear wheels and sells for around $3500? it seems that is the best route to go since it can't be any more expensive to strip your 944na down to bare metal and build it back up with a turbo 944 engine with a vitesse kit on it or just to put a 944 turbo engine right in it then put on a vitesse stage ii kit? is it that your practice sane/insane budget limits you to 420hp/tq with the vitesse and the 944 engine? also i see all these japanese cars with 500whp and tiny 1.2L 4 cylinder engines so it seems we could get a lot more from the 944 cheaply if we were more creative, there must not be enough research and development into tuning the 944 since its an old car...
from the crate engine site, the only race lsx engine that compared to the numbers of that vitesse stage ii was the ls3 and the ls3 must cost more than $10k and the ls3's numbers of around 430hp/tq are probably at the crank not the rear wheels like with the vitesse kit...
http://www.gmperformanceparts.com/En...1992&engCat=ls
09-06-2008, 02:20 PM
#64
Rainman
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GM owns Chevy. LS engines are small-block Chevy engines, built by Chevy in the USA/Mexico.
The difference is that a LS V8 is so large displacement and naturally aspirated and can EASILY handle 400HP. The great thing about the V8 is that its a simple design that can easily be improved upon. Like we've seen before just by changing the camshaft (only 1!) you can gain upwards of 100HP. The SBC has been around for 50+ years and so it has an inconceivably large aftermarket and replacement parts are very cheap. You can go to a bookstore, buy one of those Chevy tuner magazines and they will tell you how to port and polish your engine for 20 more horsepower in an hour with simple tools.
You can't do that on the 951. The 951 engine block from the factory was designed to handle at least 250HP, that we know. But when you start cramming even more air in there, even more fuel in there, it will stress components more than they were designed for. They may hold up but over time it will decrease the longevity of the engine.
I absolutely guarantee that with only regular maintenance a LS3 V8 with a cam (~480 CHP) will outlast a 420WHP 951.
The difference is that a LS V8 is so large displacement and naturally aspirated and can EASILY handle 400HP. The great thing about the V8 is that its a simple design that can easily be improved upon. Like we've seen before just by changing the camshaft (only 1!) you can gain upwards of 100HP. The SBC has been around for 50+ years and so it has an inconceivably large aftermarket and replacement parts are very cheap. You can go to a bookstore, buy one of those Chevy tuner magazines and they will tell you how to port and polish your engine for 20 more horsepower in an hour with simple tools.
You can't do that on the 951. The 951 engine block from the factory was designed to handle at least 250HP, that we know. But when you start cramming even more air in there, even more fuel in there, it will stress components more than they were designed for. They may hold up but over time it will decrease the longevity of the engine.
I absolutely guarantee that with only regular maintenance a LS3 V8 with a cam (~480 CHP) will outlast a 420WHP 951.
09-06-2008, 04:03 PM
#65
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Just a clarification on the LS engines. As far I know they are built at the GM engine facility in St Catherines Ontario, although other plants may be in on it now. The engines were designed for the C5 vette and are aluminum block and head and quite a bit different from earlier SBC's as it is internally balanced. I have the long block in my shop and it is a work of art. I bought the LS6 intake and it is nylon and probably weighs five ponds. I toyed with the idea of putting the engine in the car stock but I thought that wouldn't be right so....
09-06-2008, 04:12 PM
#66
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i am the guy that let my buddy drive my LS powered car and busted a cv joint. I drive the car in the One Lap of America and he is my co-driver and lives across the street. He has keys to the car and is addicted to driving the thing as am i. Came home one friday night after dinner with family and he and buddies are looking under the car and the little cv joint ***** are slowly falling out onto the driveway , lol. He had a sheepish grin and confessed that he had a bet with a friend that it could pull the front wheels off the ground. He lost the bet and bought and installed new cv joints on both sides since the other might have been damaged. Links to the car:
http://home.woh.rr.com/expuppy/
http://home.woh.rr.com/expuppy/
09-06-2008, 04:31 PM
#67
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i am the guy that let my buddy drive my LS powered car and busted a cv joint. I drive the car in the One Lap of America and he is my co-driver and lives across the street. He has keys to the car and is addicted to driving the thing as am i. Came home one friday night after dinner with family and he and buddies are looking under the car and the little cv joint ***** are slowly falling out onto the driveway , lol. He had a sheepish grin and confessed that he had a bet with a friend that it could pull the front wheels off the ground. He lost the bet and bought and installed new cv joints on both sides since the other might have been damaged. Links to the car:
http://home.woh.rr.com/expuppy/
http://home.woh.rr.com/expuppy/
09-06-2008, 04:35 PM
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you know, i thought about getting those but , and my logic may be flawed here, i think i want them to break if i get too aggressive cuz the next weaker link may be the tranny or the torque tube and i can buy a LOT of cv's for what it costs to replace those. I just try not to launch too hard on the strip. Most of our events in One Lap are road courses like Road America, Nelson, VIR, etc and i dont need to launch hard at those places.
09-06-2008, 04:47 PM
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i understand the fact that you get easy parts and upgrades for the lsx engines and they are a bigger engine so they can get more power, but the vitesse stage ii is rwhp so that means for just $3500 you get more hp/tq than a more expensive and troublesome swap (the swap isn't as easy as the vitesse kit).
what makes the vitesse stage ii engine less reliable than an expensive crate lsx?
don't get me wrong i love the idea of the v8's, i just don't know much about this stuff...
the following is assuming you do 99% of the work yourself
944 turbo with vitesse stage ii
------------------------------------
$6500 for the car 951
$3500 for the vitesse stage ii kit
$2500 for some other stuff like fuel pressure, bigger injectors, xover wrap
=================
total $12500 for 430whp/tq
(downside - lag, reliability?, maintenance?)
(upside - kit is easier than a swap, stock parts, all porsche, more hp/tq, faster car, better handling car, better brakes and other parts)
944na with ls3 crate engine
-------------------------------------
$2500 for the car
$5000 for the swap
$10000 for the ls3 crate engine with 374whp/tq at the crank
=================
total $17500 for 374whp/tq
(downside - still need to upgrade brakes, wheels trans, and all the other "OPTIONAL" stuff that comes in the renegade hybrid swap, don't have a cool turbo front end, not using porsche parts)
(upside - can get 1500whp/tq if you want, easy to find engine parts, more reliable engine, better gas mileage?, better driveability, better low end tq, more tuning parts available)
did i miss anything or misrepresent anything?
what makes the vitesse stage ii engine less reliable than an expensive crate lsx?
don't get me wrong i love the idea of the v8's, i just don't know much about this stuff...
the following is assuming you do 99% of the work yourself
944 turbo with vitesse stage ii
------------------------------------
$6500 for the car 951
$3500 for the vitesse stage ii kit
$2500 for some other stuff like fuel pressure, bigger injectors, xover wrap
=================
total $12500 for 430whp/tq
(downside - lag, reliability?, maintenance?)
(upside - kit is easier than a swap, stock parts, all porsche, more hp/tq, faster car, better handling car, better brakes and other parts)
944na with ls3 crate engine
-------------------------------------
$2500 for the car
$5000 for the swap
$10000 for the ls3 crate engine with 374whp/tq at the crank
=================
total $17500 for 374whp/tq
(downside - still need to upgrade brakes, wheels trans, and all the other "OPTIONAL" stuff that comes in the renegade hybrid swap, don't have a cool turbo front end, not using porsche parts)
(upside - can get 1500whp/tq if you want, easy to find engine parts, more reliable engine, better gas mileage?, better driveability, better low end tq, more tuning parts available)
did i miss anything or misrepresent anything?
GM owns Chevy. LS engines are small-block Chevy engines, built by Chevy in the USA/Mexico.
The difference is that a LS V8 is so large displacement and naturally aspirated and can EASILY handle 400HP. The great thing about the V8 is that its a simple design that can easily be improved upon. Like we've seen before just by changing the camshaft (only 1!) you can gain upwards of 100HP. The SBC has been around for 50+ years and so it has an inconceivably large aftermarket and replacement parts are very cheap. You can go to a bookstore, buy one of those Chevy tuner magazines and they will tell you how to port and polish your engine for 20 more horsepower in an hour with simple tools.
You can't do that on the 951. The 951 engine block from the factory was designed to handle at least 250HP, that we know. But when you start cramming even more air in there, even more fuel in there, it will stress components more than they were designed for. They may hold up but over time it will decrease the longevity of the engine.
I absolutely guarantee that with only regular maintenance a LS3 V8 with a cam (~480 CHP) will outlast a 420WHP 951.
The difference is that a LS V8 is so large displacement and naturally aspirated and can EASILY handle 400HP. The great thing about the V8 is that its a simple design that can easily be improved upon. Like we've seen before just by changing the camshaft (only 1!) you can gain upwards of 100HP. The SBC has been around for 50+ years and so it has an inconceivably large aftermarket and replacement parts are very cheap. You can go to a bookstore, buy one of those Chevy tuner magazines and they will tell you how to port and polish your engine for 20 more horsepower in an hour with simple tools.
You can't do that on the 951. The 951 engine block from the factory was designed to handle at least 250HP, that we know. But when you start cramming even more air in there, even more fuel in there, it will stress components more than they were designed for. They may hold up but over time it will decrease the longevity of the engine.
I absolutely guarantee that with only regular maintenance a LS3 V8 with a cam (~480 CHP) will outlast a 420WHP 951.
09-06-2008, 04:51 PM
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you know, i thought about getting those but , and my logic may be flawed here, i think i want them to break if i get too aggressive cuz the next weaker link may be the tranny or the torque tube and i can buy a LOT of cv's for what it costs to replace those. I just try not to launch too hard on the strip. Most of our events in One Lap are road courses like Road America, Nelson, VIR, etc and i dont need to launch hard at those places.
09-06-2008, 05:00 PM
#72
Rainman
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an LS3 with a cam will make 480HP forever. there is no lag. there is torque out the wazoo so your little 944 can tow steamships.
when something breaks like a waterpump or a gasket you go to kragen and they will have 5 in stock and it will cost maybe $50. clutches are less than $100.
a superduper turbo 951 will make that power once you get to 4000+RPM but anything below and it will suck. also i would think the V8 at those power levels would get better mileage because its injectors are lower flow than those of a similarly powered 4banger and the bigger engine isnt working as hard.
and with the turbo if you use all the vitesse parts and put your car up to 18 or 21 PSI and something goes wrong you might end up with a nuclear engine block with a hole the size of new hampshire where the oil filter should be.
on the stock chevy you can put a supercharger on there for maybe 7 PSI and make another 150HP.
when something breaks like a waterpump or a gasket you go to kragen and they will have 5 in stock and it will cost maybe $50. clutches are less than $100.
a superduper turbo 951 will make that power once you get to 4000+RPM but anything below and it will suck. also i would think the V8 at those power levels would get better mileage because its injectors are lower flow than those of a similarly powered 4banger and the bigger engine isnt working as hard.
and with the turbo if you use all the vitesse parts and put your car up to 18 or 21 PSI and something goes wrong you might end up with a nuclear engine block with a hole the size of new hampshire where the oil filter should be.
on the stock chevy you can put a supercharger on there for maybe 7 PSI and make another 150HP.
09-06-2008, 05:09 PM
#73
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my strategy is to upgrade all the facets of the car. putting the LS to get hp/torque. Then i upgraded the brakes so i could stay in the right pedal longer, then i put coilovers all around. Then put the fatest, largest tires the body will tolerate to stick in the corners and top it off with big honkin sway bars. Make sure you upgrade the safety stuff too, cuz you are going a lot faster now. good helmet with hans, 2 layer suit, gloves, shoes, fire suppression and roll cage. It all resulted in pretty fast, fairly safe but mega-fun street and road racing car. During cannonball i saw people with too much hp and couldnt put it down, couldnt slow it down and couldnt corner. I also saw the 980 hp viper that could barely finish one event without breaking. Our cars are SOOOO well balanced that these few tweeks and you can run competitive with c5's vipers, 911's (older ones, the twin t's and newer are still a bit hard to run down.) I applaud that the engine swap guys have stopped beating their chests and are happy to talk about the strengths and weaknesses of the frankencars. Kudos to the more typical porsche guys for seeing the swappers as modifiers instead of destroyers. I learn from the purists about handling and from hybriders about hp, tuning and torque.
09-06-2008, 05:47 PM
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an LS3 with a cam will make 480HP forever. there is no lag. there is torque out the wazoo so your little 944 can tow steamships.
when something breaks like a waterpump or a gasket you go to kragen and they will have 5 in stock and it will cost maybe $50. clutches are less than $100.
a superduper turbo 951 will make that power once you get to 4000+RPM but anything below and it will suck. also i would think the V8 at those power levels would get better mileage because its injectors are lower flow than those of a similarly powered 4banger and the bigger engine isnt working as hard.
and with the turbo if you use all the vitesse parts and put your car up to 18 or 21 PSI and something goes wrong you might end up with a nuclear engine block with a hole the size of new hampshire where the oil filter should be.
on the stock chevy you can put a supercharger on there for maybe 7 PSI and make another 150HP.
when something breaks like a waterpump or a gasket you go to kragen and they will have 5 in stock and it will cost maybe $50. clutches are less than $100.
a superduper turbo 951 will make that power once you get to 4000+RPM but anything below and it will suck. also i would think the V8 at those power levels would get better mileage because its injectors are lower flow than those of a similarly powered 4banger and the bigger engine isnt working as hard.
and with the turbo if you use all the vitesse parts and put your car up to 18 or 21 PSI and something goes wrong you might end up with a nuclear engine block with a hole the size of new hampshire where the oil filter should be.
on the stock chevy you can put a supercharger on there for maybe 7 PSI and make another 150HP.
it sounds like the main reason to spend more for the v8 is low end torque, more parts, reliability, and it's easier to upgrade... still the vitesse has ~65 more hp/tq at the wheels for much less money... and replacement 944 engines are cheap.
i still want to do a v8, but i think more can be done with these little 944's like the japanese engine tuner's do with their 240z's.
09-06-2008, 05:49 PM
#75
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my strategy is to upgrade all the facets of the car. putting the LS to get hp/torque. Then i upgraded the brakes so i could stay in the right pedal longer, then i put coilovers all around. Then put the fatest, largest tires the body will tolerate to stick in the corners and top it off with big honkin sway bars. Make sure you upgrade the safety stuff too, cuz you are going a lot faster now. good helmet with hans, 2 layer suit, gloves, shoes, fire suppression and roll cage. It all resulted in pretty fast, fairly safe but mega-fun street and road racing car. During cannonball i saw people with too much hp and couldnt put it down, couldnt slow it down and couldnt corner. I also saw the 980 hp viper that could barely finish one event without breaking. Our cars are SOOOO well balanced that these few tweeks and you can run competitive with c5's vipers, 911's (older ones, the twin t's and newer are still a bit hard to run down.) I applaud that the engine swap guys have stopped beating their chests and are happy to talk about the strengths and weaknesses of the frankencars. Kudos to the more typical porsche guys for seeing the swappers as modifiers instead of destroyers. I learn from the purists about handling and from hybriders about hp, tuning and torque.