Car purchaser wants deposit back
02-29-2008, 02:44 PM
#46
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That is correct. Even without a written contract, there was an agreement of some sort and the buyer is trying to default on terms of the agreement.
That's is absurd! You would request the PPI after you asked to terminate the agreement? You can only legally change terms/conditions of an agreement if both parties agree to the changes. Besides, it's probably a few months too late to try and pull that.
That's is absurd! You would request the PPI after you asked to terminate the agreement? You can only legally change terms/conditions of an agreement if both parties agree to the changes. Besides, it's probably a few months too late to try and pull that.
02-29-2008, 03:12 PM
#48
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I am not a legal expert. I am applying what I learnt in Business Law when I was in my MBA program.
The court may favor Ericmess. According to contract law, the key elements of "offer", "acceptance" and "consideration" must be fulfilled. The situation between the poster and his intended buyer appears to fulfill these conditions. A verbal contract can also be considered a legally binding contract, especially when the buyer has already placed a deposit to confirm his intent to purchase.
Depending on the convincing nature of Ericmess' argument in court, the court will most likely allow him to keep the deposit. I would venture to say that the court may even require the buyer to furnish the balance of payment on the car as a contractual relationship already exists.
I would love to hear what MichelleJD would say about this situation.
The court may favor Ericmess. According to contract law, the key elements of "offer", "acceptance" and "consideration" must be fulfilled. The situation between the poster and his intended buyer appears to fulfill these conditions. A verbal contract can also be considered a legally binding contract, especially when the buyer has already placed a deposit to confirm his intent to purchase.
Depending on the convincing nature of Ericmess' argument in court, the court will most likely allow him to keep the deposit. I would venture to say that the court may even require the buyer to furnish the balance of payment on the car as a contractual relationship already exists.
I would love to hear what MichelleJD would say about this situation.
02-29-2008, 03:19 PM
#49
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sorry for the ot... yes, the tr250 is sort of a 'family' car. I learned how to do my own wrenching on a triumph before I was old enough to drive. Good cars, but not fast by any means.
.. might be time for something a little lighter for the avatar.
.. might be time for something a little lighter for the avatar.
02-29-2008, 04:27 PM
#50
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If i was the buyer in small claims court:
I'd set up a PPI. A PPI is bound to uncover things that were unknown (or at least I'd state they were unknown). And of course I'd say I told the seller I was planning on a PPI. Any recommended fixes to the tune of $1K and I'd be getting my deposit back via the judge. Judges tend to protect the consumer more so than the seller. You have no "as is where is" clause. I could show the Judge this website where most posters recommend a PPI in order to show that a PPI is reasonable to expect.
Have you driven the car at all since accepting the deposit? If so, I don't think a judge is going to give much consideration to storage and insurance. Same if the car is "stored" on your non-commercial property.
I think it was stupid of the buyer to relinquish a deposit without some type of written contract. I also think it was foolish on your part to accept said deposit without same.
I've only sold one car with payment terms. He was employed by my friend and lived on my friend's property, so I had recourse. A contract was penned to include the terms of payment or lack thereof. He didn't take delivery until paid in full. Heck...when I first bought my house, I borrowed a bit of coin from the folks. I insisted on a contract. I've seen friendships and families fall apart when there wasn't a mutual agreement that both parties signed.
If I put up good faith money (not termed a deposit) on a house, that money is held by my broker. If I fail to obtain financing, for WHATEVER reason, that money is returned (with interest). I think the guy is being a bit of a weanie and he shouldn't have made an obligation he couldn't keep. No reason for 2 weanies.
I'm still at a loss as to why you would enter into this delayed sale. Any REAL costs you knew you would absorb. So he seemed like a good guy and really wanted your car. Those grow on trees. I don't view a "deposit" as "cash in hand". He told you he didn't have the money and would have to save for months. Big red flag IMHO. I still think a 50-50 split is about as fair as it can be. You both errored. You'll both know better next time and the lesson really takes hold if you both hurt a bit.
Out of curiousity...what are the cars specs, condition and agreed price?
I'd set up a PPI. A PPI is bound to uncover things that were unknown (or at least I'd state they were unknown). And of course I'd say I told the seller I was planning on a PPI. Any recommended fixes to the tune of $1K and I'd be getting my deposit back via the judge. Judges tend to protect the consumer more so than the seller. You have no "as is where is" clause. I could show the Judge this website where most posters recommend a PPI in order to show that a PPI is reasonable to expect.
Have you driven the car at all since accepting the deposit? If so, I don't think a judge is going to give much consideration to storage and insurance. Same if the car is "stored" on your non-commercial property.
I think it was stupid of the buyer to relinquish a deposit without some type of written contract. I also think it was foolish on your part to accept said deposit without same.
I've only sold one car with payment terms. He was employed by my friend and lived on my friend's property, so I had recourse. A contract was penned to include the terms of payment or lack thereof. He didn't take delivery until paid in full. Heck...when I first bought my house, I borrowed a bit of coin from the folks. I insisted on a contract. I've seen friendships and families fall apart when there wasn't a mutual agreement that both parties signed.
If I put up good faith money (not termed a deposit) on a house, that money is held by my broker. If I fail to obtain financing, for WHATEVER reason, that money is returned (with interest). I think the guy is being a bit of a weanie and he shouldn't have made an obligation he couldn't keep. No reason for 2 weanies.
I'm still at a loss as to why you would enter into this delayed sale. Any REAL costs you knew you would absorb. So he seemed like a good guy and really wanted your car. Those grow on trees. I don't view a "deposit" as "cash in hand". He told you he didn't have the money and would have to save for months. Big red flag IMHO. I still think a 50-50 split is about as fair as it can be. You both errored. You'll both know better next time and the lesson really takes hold if you both hurt a bit.
Out of curiousity...what are the cars specs, condition and agreed price?
02-29-2008, 07:00 PM
#51
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The first thing the judge in small claims is going to ask is : "where is the car now?" As "BackinBlack" said, it's going to be a hard sell to prove that you've been damaged if you still have the vehicle and were driving it around while keeping it on your insurance. Basically speaking, you can't get something (deposit) for providing nothing (car). I don't want to hammer "Ericmess" too much, because he did come here for advice and opinions, but it doesn't sound like he set any boundaries to the verbal agreement. As being the seller, you have the "upper hand" in the sale and the burden of doing your homework on stipulating the conditions and management of the deposit.
The buyer shouldn't be left guessing as to what the seller's conditions of the deposit are. Some people would offer a total "no questions asked" refund, others may say; "no refund under any circumstances." Either could be argued in small claims court. The court would heavily favor the consumer, as some unscrupulous individuals could make a decent living from parading nice shiney Porsches in front of young glazy-eyed adults who don't have the means to pay for the vehicle, then keep the deposits.
The buyer shouldn't be left guessing as to what the seller's conditions of the deposit are. Some people would offer a total "no questions asked" refund, others may say; "no refund under any circumstances." Either could be argued in small claims court. The court would heavily favor the consumer, as some unscrupulous individuals could make a decent living from parading nice shiney Porsches in front of young glazy-eyed adults who don't have the means to pay for the vehicle, then keep the deposits.
03-01-2008, 02:44 PM
#52
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On the bright side seasonality is now in your favor as spring is a better time to sell being based in MN.
03-01-2008, 11:38 PM
#53
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jeez, two pages and not much in touch with reality.
Sorry guys, I think all the legal thoughts you have dont matter.
Why you ask? Because this is not something that will go to court because black is trying to do the right thing from the getgo.
i think instead of worrying about the deposit black should focus on selling the car.
If the car goes for what he wanted, and he isnt damaged too much, give the money (less the damage) back. if the value of the car dropped like a rock simply because of time or the stock market or whatever, then keep the money.
first thing is to figure out the damages, and that is by actively trying to sell the car.
Sorry guys, I think all the legal thoughts you have dont matter.
Why you ask? Because this is not something that will go to court because black is trying to do the right thing from the getgo.
i think instead of worrying about the deposit black should focus on selling the car.
If the car goes for what he wanted, and he isnt damaged too much, give the money (less the damage) back. if the value of the car dropped like a rock simply because of time or the stock market or whatever, then keep the money.
first thing is to figure out the damages, and that is by actively trying to sell the car.
03-02-2008, 06:59 PM
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I start to sell the car again, when you sell the car you give him the money back, since you wait for him and lost many buyers for your car. He can wait too. I think it would be fair. I think he needs the dental work when someone hit it with a bat because he try to bail out of a deal with a person that was not a friend of his.
03-03-2008, 03:03 PM
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for what its worth, I posted this thread on two different sites. I wanted and E46 ///M3 for the longest time until I realized I don't want to drop 25-30k on a car that costs 4-5k to service each year. Plus after driving one, it wasn't quite what I thought it would be. So I posted the thread on the E46 BMW forum and those people were more givey. Check it out if you want.
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...d.php?t=947519
Its funny the difference between 944/951 people and the E46 Bimmer guys.
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...d.php?t=947519
Its funny the difference between 944/951 people and the E46 Bimmer guys.
03-03-2008, 03:06 PM
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I met with the gentleman recently to talk in person about refunding the money. He is a nice guy and he said after reading these threads, that he realizes that he isn't really in any position to demand the money back. He said he will be happy with whatever I decide to give him, as long as it isn't a note saying "F off." (I am sending him a check in the mail when I finally decide what to do...I know its taking forever) I think I am going to market it, and if I get what I was going to sell it to him for, I will refund all his money and take the pelt on storeage and insurance which isn't too bad. It may take him a while to get his money going that route, but I would assume we would like to maximize his return and would be willing to wait for it...
03-03-2008, 10:07 PM
#58
You have to do what you are comfortable with.
Something happened like this with me and an Ebay sale. When the guy showed up he didn't want the car. I sold it to someone else about 2 monthes later for a little more than what this guy won it for on Ebay. After the sale was complete I gave the full deposit back.
In my book its not always about what would go down in the courtroom , especially if I have the cards in my favor, and thats because I'm a nice guy. Hopefully, someday someone will show me some mercy.
In my book its not always about what would go down in the courtroom , especially if I have the cards in my favor, and thats because I'm a nice guy. Hopefully, someday someone will show me some mercy.
03-03-2008, 11:36 PM
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Eric...I really figured you'd try to find something that was "fair". Otherwise you wouldn't have asked the question.
I still have to wonder why you even entertained this type of offer though. I wouldn't hold a deal for more than a week (if the guy didn't have the money) and I'd be taking the names/numbers of anyone calling afterwards while letting them know I had a pending sale.
In your most honest assesment...is the car worth the agreed upon price?
I still have to wonder why you even entertained this type of offer though. I wouldn't hold a deal for more than a week (if the guy didn't have the money) and I'd be taking the names/numbers of anyone calling afterwards while letting them know I had a pending sale.
In your most honest assesment...is the car worth the agreed upon price?
03-04-2008, 08:58 AM
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Eric...I really figured you'd try to find something that was "fair". Otherwise you wouldn't have asked the question.
I still have to wonder why you even entertained this type of offer though. I wouldn't hold a deal for more than a week (if the guy didn't have the money) and I'd be taking the names/numbers of anyone calling afterwards while letting them know I had a pending sale.
In your most honest assesment...is the car worth the agreed upon price?
I still have to wonder why you even entertained this type of offer though. I wouldn't hold a deal for more than a week (if the guy didn't have the money) and I'd be taking the names/numbers of anyone calling afterwards while letting them know I had a pending sale.
In your most honest assesment...is the car worth the agreed upon price?
The car for sale is a 1986 porsche 944 turbo. 110k miles. completely stock with every receipt totaling to 16k worth of service over its life time. Paint is 9 out of 10 and shines great. no rust or dents. interior is great, no cracks in dash. the seats are prob the worst part of the car, a 6-7 out of 10, and really the only downer of the car. new tires, new clutch, new breaks, full tune up (all the filters, plugs, wires.) No LSD. sunroof needs repair, non-operable. A/c doesnt work, but most people might delete it. Very well maintained by previous 3 owners. I have a 2" 3 ring binder full of all its documents, clear carfax. I wanted $9.5k as a good price before winter...
...thoughts...