Luis de Prat

I think Tim is just doing the right thing and checking different sources before drawing any conclusions.

Sometimes wrong conclusions are drawn too early and people are falsely accused. This situation reminds me of when I imported a U.S. spec 944S2 and the local customs office stalled the import process 24 hours because they thought it was stolen, since on PCNA cars the A-pillar VIN number doesn't match the chassis number on the firewall.

I had to get written confirmation from Porsche AG in Germany stating that both serial numbers corresponded to the same car!

Legoland951

I believe the first and maybe only source that should be checked is the police.

Its is not true that one cannot buy a car with no VIN. I bought a van from the police impound with absolutely no VIN and they had to lift the body off the frame to get the frame number. I bought it from the impound, registered it at the dmv with no VIN, made an appointment with the CHP to have new VIN tag, and sold the vehicle before I went to the CHP so it had NO VIN anywhere on the car. It is illegal and a federal felony to ALTER (as in VIN switching) but its NOT illegal to have a car with a missing VIN as long as its not altered intentionally by you and or reported stolen. If you have missing VIN, the CHP can have only ONE VIN tag instead of having the required 3 typical VINs on a car.

I have also bought a 87 mustang 5.0 and discovered through the hidden VIN that the car had the wrong VIN. I informed the impound and shipped the car back without any problems as its entirely their fault for selling me a car thats not what it is.

When I had that van, I had no "title" (only lien sale paperwork), no VIN, no history, and no license plates as the state requires plates to be destroyed when a car is sold through the impound. I don't understand the intent of this thread since its as simple as one phone call unless you want to warn someone about a "possible thief", which can be a slippery slope.

billthe3

Even if the guy has nothing to do with whatever may be wrong with the car, if the car is stolen he is in posession of stolen property and it should be returned to whomever the official owner is.

Cliff notes: call the cops.

Legoland951

If the car is stolen, the guy will be arrested for possession of stolen property. A stolen car has nothing to do with missing VIN or no paperwork.

billthe3

If he has proof of purchase forms from whomever he bougt it from, wouldn't he not get arrested for stolen propterty? Of course why anyone would buy a car without a vin and all the other problems is a completely different question.

Legoland951

Possession of stolen property and receiving stolen property CAN land one in jail. If I bought a $5000 complete Ferrari in pieces with a receipt from the thief, the thief can be arrested for grand theft and I can be arrested for receiving and posssession of stolen property as anyone knows its not possible to buy a $250,000 Ferrari for $5,000 unless its hot. I would have no problems buying something without a DASH VIN but has the firewall VIN or frame rail VIN. I also can run the engine number to verify whether its of the right year and in the case of this 87, I would check where one of the fairly accessible secret VIN to see if it matches. I buy cars without keys all the time as impounded vehicles often do not have keys. In fact, the last month, I bought a
motorhome, diesel camper truck, 2 mercedes and a 1962 impala without keys. I have bought so many cars without keys I do my own locksmith work and can rekey any lock on a 944 to the any 944 key. I thought of rekeying all my 944s to the same key as my keychain weighs more than a pound from so many 944 keys. There is absolutely nothing wrong with buying a car with no keys if you call it into the CHP to make sure its not stolen and the car is registered to that person's name even if they LOST AND HAVE NO TITLE.

Jfrahm

From what I read it depends on the state, and maybe getting a vehicle from police impound changes things.

If this summary is to be believed it looks to be true in many states that it is illegal to sell a vehicle with an altered or missing VIN, or even to possess such a car if the owner/seller knows the VIN was altered or removed to conceal the car's 'identity.'

http://www.boss302.com/legal.htm

If the police end up with a car with a damaged VIN and determine the true VIN and sell it, that appears to be legal. In CA it looks like you need special paperwork to sell a car with a damaged, missing or altered VIN, some sort of state replacement VIN number?:

10751. (a) No person shall knowingly buy, sell, offer for sale,
receive, or have in his or her possession, any vehicle, or component
part thereof, from which any serial or identification number,
including, but not limited to, any number used for registration
purposes, that is affixed by the manufacturer to the vehicle or
component part, in whatever manner deemed proper by the manufacturer,
has been removed, defaced, altered, or destroyed, unless the vehicle
or component part has attached thereto an identification number
assigned or approved by the department in lieu of the manufacturer's
number.

http://www.classictiger.com/vinlaw.html

At any rate it looks to me like someone selling a car with a missing VIN could be in some trouble.
-Joel.

Legoland951

Joel, according to 10751. (a), you cannot have any part where the id number that is affixed by the manufacturer removed/altered. Therefore, if anyone repaints any 944/951 over the VIN stickers on the hood, fenders, doors, or quarter panel, you are breaking the law. Most cars after 1988 have VIN stickers affixed to the body parts so I hope you all can read the VIN stickers or technically its illegal for you to possess that car.

The intent to conceal the true identity of a vehicle by removing/altering is always illegal and to sell a car with knowledge of intentionally altered VIN is illegal even if the car is NOT stolen.

If you have a missing VIN, you can get a CHP VIN assignment. Its done all the time. I sold a police impound theft recovery truck with no VIN to a woman who had the truck stolen from her. The police knew I sold the car with no VIN other than the one on the frame and as long as you have an appointment with the CHP to assign a new VIN tag, its perfectly ok to sell a car provided its not reported stolen. Vehicle with altered VIN gets reported and usually end up at the impound where the original VIN is determined and the altered VIN removed. These vehicles are either sold with VIN assignment required or under section 462 as scrap metal to dismantlers. Believe me you can sell a car with no VIN as the DMV will start the process and put a car in your name WITH an appointment to go to the CHP for VIN assignment.

Last of all, I just worked on a lister's 951 and its missing the frame VIN tag. It was in a wreck and bondo is in the place of that VIN. I don't think he will be in trouble but technically, its illegal for that person to be in possession of that car. I also have cut off the VIN plate at the A pillar while removing a windshield. When they assign a VIN, its placed by the door jamb so you will never have a "public" VIN that is visible from outside of the car. and its perfectly legal. When I had a used car dealership, I had to deal with the DMV many many times and helped auto detectives to impound employees to find hidden VINs occassionally. Its really not that uncommon to have VIN problems on cars.

mpd425

From my experience the general public dosn't have to prove guilt to charge someone for theft, the police do that. If you report it to the police they can investigate it.

Jfrahm

I understand that VINs get damaged or even removed from cars which are later legally cured and legally sold. If that were true in this situation I think it would have been mentioned in the first post. Since the car is for sale with no paperwork my guess is that the VIN issue has not been legally addressed.

What the law seems to address is the situation where a owner/seller alters the VIN to conceal the true VIN, or knowingly buys or sells such a car. Innocently painting over a VIN tag on a panel when the cowl, doorjamb, firewall, etc. are still in place does not look like to be illegal.

"The VIN plate at the windshield has been broken out."

IMO the seller would have to legally address this first, or offering the car for sale would be a criminal act.

-Joel.

Yabo

Will everyone who is saying this thread is stupid and attacking the original poster for not releasing the person's personal information PLEASE stop posting and use a little thought?

Let me make a pretend example here.

I saw Lart's car the other day. I ran his VIN on carfax and see it was never registered anywhere near where he lives. I think it's stolen. He lives on 2443 Main St., Los Angeles, CA and his phone number is 602-503-3252 and the car is parked on the right side of his house.

Then you'd have everyone on rennlist who lives around here sitting in non distinct cars with cameras acting as paparazzi trying to solve the "mystery case" when all it was is a carfax error, and now eveyrone on the internet has his addresas, he's getting spam phone calls and emails from phisher programs that comb the internet for posted personal information, turbynow actually steals his car, affter seeing his address and reading info in his sig, etc.

Those of you asking for him to got o the police, there is NO VIN ON THE WINDSHIELD, he received this "vin" over the phone (OP didn't explain who gave him this, presumably the current holder of the car)... Who is confident this is the VIN, if it is who got it? You think the owner of a stolen car was going to give the real vin? This is rediculous. So great you call the police and they say nope, this pink 944 hasn't been reported stolen. Then you are in the same place you started and teh car has probably been parted out.

So he asked here and someone here could say Oh thats my car, see i have pictures, it was stolen last week. Problem solved. If not, the owner who MAY not be a thief's personal live isn't invaded.

I know it's easy to post a sentence without thinking on a web forum but please utilize your brain here people, and not confuse the OP's intentions.

Legoland951

Its very simple and I have stated it several times. I don't believe this thread should continue without calling the police to check/investigate if someone IS really concerned. When I moved into my last house, I had about a whole garage full of car parts and the neighbors called the sheriff who came over to check everything out. I simply showed him the title of about 20 cars and showed him documentation of who I bought the car/parts from and never had a problem at the house with police again. Its not your job to convict someone. Its the DA who press charges, the police who investigates, and you who report possible crimes.

Yabo

Lego, of course the police can help. But the thread doesn't hurt anyone if it continues, disregarding whether or not police have been called. It really doesn't have anything to do with it. If it was your car I'm sure you'd like to hear it.

You could've faked all that information to the police too. This thread really is not a big deal and if noone here thinks its theirs, it did no harm.

The only way this thread does cause harm is if he released the person's information, which he didn't. Seems to me he did most of things right here. Who 'reported' this to him anyway?

luckett

The police don't have to prove guilt to arrest anyone. That's the responsibility of the prosecution in the jurisdiction where the alleged crime took place.

Legoland951

Well, the number of people selling a gold turbo in the country is limited. I am not sure how anyone else here can help other than to speculate. It makes for good drama but imo it doesn't do much else. If I were truly concerned, the police would have verified whether its legit or not a couple days ago. If its not legit, it may already be in pieces just for waiting a couple days while people speculate on.