brand new 20 years old 944TS
12-08-2007, 11:34 PM
#46
Three Wheelin'
It has a 160 MPH speedometer, so it has been replaced...even regular 1988 turbos had 180 MPH speedometers. Did they find a 160 MPH one lying around and decided to put it in a 162 MPH car when it was built? I don't think so. Isn't that enough to show that it is not as advertised? It's a nicely detailed Turbo S with unknown mileage and no service records, period.
12-09-2007, 12:41 AM
#48
Wow, everyone is getting twisted about this car. I have a 88 turbo s, it did not come with insulation under the hood, a single screw rusting or oxidizing in 20 years is not possible? He never stated the car was stored in a climate controlled bubble time capsule! You can not pay anyone to convert a $500 na to a turbo s. If your computer monitor is good enough, you can make out the vin on the window sticker and that it clearly states it is a turbo with the s option package. who in the hell care if it has a new coolant resvoir on it vice the old one, maybe it was just replaced to clean up the engine bay. by looking at the pictures it appears the car was out in the elements at one time, look at the oxidation on the rims. I dont beleive it to be fake, and if I was in the market I would personally go and inspect the car, before I bought it. People are to quick to knock the car or call shananigans. I tell you what I will pull a carfax, an equifax auto report (that all Porsche dealers use on used Porsche's) and a warranty history to see what it shows, on Monday. I will post the results then. I may be serving crow or eating crow then. we will see.
Semper Fi
Semper Fi
12-09-2007, 12:47 AM
#49
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the rusty screw means this is probably a katrina car. i bet all the papers were in the car at the time too.
or, maybe just maybe when the car was new, someone unscrewed that screw and chipped the paint on the screw. 20 years later it is rusting.
Nah, it is a katrina car.
i dont remember if my 88 turbo had the 160 or 180 mph speedo. but the fact that i had the S2 and NA at the same time, and didnt notice a difference, leads me to belive i had a 160 mph speedo on my 88 turbo.
or, maybe just maybe when the car was new, someone unscrewed that screw and chipped the paint on the screw. 20 years later it is rusting.
Nah, it is a katrina car.
i dont remember if my 88 turbo had the 160 or 180 mph speedo. but the fact that i had the S2 and NA at the same time, and didnt notice a difference, leads me to belive i had a 160 mph speedo on my 88 turbo.
12-09-2007, 01:03 AM
#50
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It says right in the description that it is a 944 Turbo with the "Turbo S" "Option".
It also has an optional radio, which means the dash was probably opened up? It may also just be an illusion that the screws have rust on them.
The paint in the rear, looks fine.
The coolant tank could have been replaced by a dealer for any reason unknown to us... Who knows.. Maybe it's original, maybe dealer modified.
The rust in the exhaust is probably from sitting and only starting the car up to idle and putt around.
The floor mats can be original from the dealer--not the factory.
I think you guys want to believe this car is not original, and thus find things that you think are wrong.
It also has an optional radio, which means the dash was probably opened up? It may also just be an illusion that the screws have rust on them.
The paint in the rear, looks fine.
The coolant tank could have been replaced by a dealer for any reason unknown to us... Who knows.. Maybe it's original, maybe dealer modified.
The rust in the exhaust is probably from sitting and only starting the car up to idle and putt around.
The floor mats can be original from the dealer--not the factory.
I think you guys want to believe this car is not original, and thus find things that you think are wrong.
the paint is totally bumpy, not original.
maybe the whole car is an illusion.
12-09-2007, 01:08 AM
#51
Semper Fi
12-09-2007, 01:15 AM
#53
Three Wheelin'
I would be very careful about criticizing a car simply because I couldn't afford it or didn't have one as nice - but that's just me. Trying to deduce carpet alignment, screw oxidation, and zinc coloration from flash photos viewed on a computer monitor is one of the more ridiculous exercises one could undertake for evaluating a car.
The interior of this car stands up better to flash photography than just about every other one I've seen - especially with the script seats, whose sheen usually gives them a very faded appearance under harsh light. Take a flash picture of your original black interior and compare it to this one - you'll be sorely disappointed.
As for why it has a 160 MPH speedo and not a 180... who knows? Why did Porsche discontinue the Sport-O-Matic option in the 70s when I've seen more than one 80s SC for sale with it?
If a buyer is serious about this car, then they are going to do what I would do and compare the service records stamped in the warranty booklet for mileage. They are going to call the original owner. They are going to trace the history and find out what's going on. With 9k miles, if it's original - it won't be hard. If it suddenly gets hard - then something is probably amiss.
All of this having been said, the biggest detail I've seen missed in this entire discussion (not that some oxidation on a screw isn't a gigantic, cataclysmic fault and a total deal breaker....) is the fact that there is a Powerhaus receipt with a lot of writing tucked in that folder. I don't believe that the boys there do much "routine maintenance" - and this car is being sold in CA, not AZ - there would be little reason to take it all of the way to them for routine upkeep anyway.
Finding out what that receipt says would be of a much greater importance to me than trying to deduce the "bumpiness" of paint. From pictures.
You guys are a trip.
Micah
The interior of this car stands up better to flash photography than just about every other one I've seen - especially with the script seats, whose sheen usually gives them a very faded appearance under harsh light. Take a flash picture of your original black interior and compare it to this one - you'll be sorely disappointed.
As for why it has a 160 MPH speedo and not a 180... who knows? Why did Porsche discontinue the Sport-O-Matic option in the 70s when I've seen more than one 80s SC for sale with it?
If a buyer is serious about this car, then they are going to do what I would do and compare the service records stamped in the warranty booklet for mileage. They are going to call the original owner. They are going to trace the history and find out what's going on. With 9k miles, if it's original - it won't be hard. If it suddenly gets hard - then something is probably amiss.
All of this having been said, the biggest detail I've seen missed in this entire discussion (not that some oxidation on a screw isn't a gigantic, cataclysmic fault and a total deal breaker....) is the fact that there is a Powerhaus receipt with a lot of writing tucked in that folder. I don't believe that the boys there do much "routine maintenance" - and this car is being sold in CA, not AZ - there would be little reason to take it all of the way to them for routine upkeep anyway.
Finding out what that receipt says would be of a much greater importance to me than trying to deduce the "bumpiness" of paint. From pictures.
You guys are a trip.
Micah
12-09-2007, 01:16 AM
#54
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point out the bumps in the paint, paint looks excellent to me, only thing i see is some goofy reflections from the lighting and drop ceiling light panels
12-09-2007, 01:54 AM
#55
Race Car
There is no reason to put a 160mph speedo into a car over a year after they started fitting 180mph speedo's. My early 87 turbo (non S) has a 180mph speedo.
The only stated indication of the mileage on the car is the cluster, which if it was changed is meaningless. That is why so many people are arguing about the speedo, if you can show it has been changed then he has no proof for his mileage claim.
The only stated indication of the mileage on the car is the cluster, which if it was changed is meaningless. That is why so many people are arguing about the speedo, if you can show it has been changed then he has no proof for his mileage claim.
12-09-2007, 02:04 AM
#57
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FYI, I just ran a carfax (have a few weeks). Two entries, that's it. I think this thing really has been sitting in a bubble.
A CARFAX Vehicle History Report is based only on information supplied to CARFAX. CARFAX checked over 5 billion vehicle history events and found 2 record(s) for this 1988 PORSCHE 944 (WP0AA2956JN151571).
Date: Mileage: Source: Comments:
09/11/2006 Porsche Cars North America Manufacturer Voluntary Service Action issued
#WK07 Voluntary Service Action - Hose
Call 1-800-PORSCHE
to locate an authorized Porsche dealer
near you to obtain more information
about this Voluntary Service Action!
05/09/2007 Porsche Cars North America Manufacturer Voluntary Service Action issued
#WK07 Voluntary Service Action - Hose
Call 1-800-PORSCHE
to locate an authorized Porsche dealer
near you to obtain more information
about this Voluntary Service Action!
Date: Mileage: Source: Comments:
09/11/2006 Porsche Cars North America Manufacturer Voluntary Service Action issued
#WK07 Voluntary Service Action - Hose
Call 1-800-PORSCHE
to locate an authorized Porsche dealer
near you to obtain more information
about this Voluntary Service Action!
05/09/2007 Porsche Cars North America Manufacturer Voluntary Service Action issued
#WK07 Voluntary Service Action - Hose
Call 1-800-PORSCHE
to locate an authorized Porsche dealer
near you to obtain more information
about this Voluntary Service Action!
12-09-2007, 02:12 AM
#58
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That is a first for me. I never seen a car with no history what so ever. this must have been a dealers car all it's life and never registered. And I don’t like the way the digits line up on the odometer.
12-09-2007, 02:13 AM
#59
Race Car
Its amazing how some people feel threatened by other people's cleaner cars. Has it ever occured to anyone that $15k is considered a cheap car nowadays and not worth the effort to convert or restore? Look at their other auctions and everything else is selling for about twice as a cheapie 951. My 2005 altima sells for about that much. Who the hell in their right mind would restore a 951 for a profit? Obviously there are a good amount of people who don't know how much new parts cost and how much work it takes to convert/restore a car. You would have to take the motor apart and clean every part/screw as shown in the picture. Then, you have to take the rotors out and sand down the rust to paint it gray along with cleaning every crevice of the brake calipers and the suspension trying to get $15k out of somebody.
Low mileage cars are way overrated. I can make your odo show 0 miles if you give me about 10 minutes. Odo readings are meaningless to me.
Who gives a $hit if someone replaces the coolant tank? I know a guy who spent money buying every intake bolt new from the dealer along with his brake light assemblies because it didn't look new. I know he replaced more parts due to appearance than a lot of people here spent buying their turbo cars. Is that a crime or does that make his car not a genuine 951S? Do you know if you leave the windows down for one rain in 20 years, a whole lot of metal even under the dash can rust from the moisture? I agree that its pretty retarded trying to judge a car through some digital pictures. Go there in person and check it out if you really want it but its just ridiculous trying to knock someone's car without being there in person to look.
Low mileage cars are way overrated. I can make your odo show 0 miles if you give me about 10 minutes. Odo readings are meaningless to me.
Who gives a $hit if someone replaces the coolant tank? I know a guy who spent money buying every intake bolt new from the dealer along with his brake light assemblies because it didn't look new. I know he replaced more parts due to appearance than a lot of people here spent buying their turbo cars. Is that a crime or does that make his car not a genuine 951S? Do you know if you leave the windows down for one rain in 20 years, a whole lot of metal even under the dash can rust from the moisture? I agree that its pretty retarded trying to judge a car through some digital pictures. Go there in person and check it out if you really want it but its just ridiculous trying to knock someone's car without being there in person to look.
12-09-2007, 02:23 AM
#60
Three Wheelin'
My early 87 turbo (non S) has a 180mph speedo.
So your 87 has a 180 MPH speedo? Here's one that doesn't:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/944sd...QQcmdZViewItem
Since we're talking about a hard and fast rule here, then I'll assume your 87 does not have an original speedo and was switched out with an 88 or later...
Has it had a speedo change? Maybe. Is it possible that an 88 with the Turbo S option had a 160 MPH speedo? Absolutely. Why did my old 83 944 come without door script panels and no carpeting around the shifter? Why did the factory list a "touring package" (nearly $2K option) on the window stickers of a plethora of 1986 951s and then not provide an option number for it (or a designation telling what it included) in any factory literature? Stranger things have happened.
As I said before, it would be very easy to check on a change - have a look at the factory service stamps inside the booklet... look at mileage from the invoices... talk to the original owner(s). Call this guy and dig a little deeper.... (this has all been discussed before, BTW – we’re not doing anything new).
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?t=364513
An A/C conversion doesn't matter. Details like the fact that it also has over-the-shoulder rear belts - which I've only seen on Turbo S optioned 88s (it was standard for 89 cars), do. I would bet there are split-fold rear seats lurking in there as well. I do believe it is a genuine Turbo S. I also believe it may have had something done with regards to the speedo. Do I think we can say anything intelligent regarding its present condition or past treatment from these pictures (other than the P-haus receipt....)?
No.
Micah
So your 87 has a 180 MPH speedo? Here's one that doesn't:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/944sd...QQcmdZViewItem
Since we're talking about a hard and fast rule here, then I'll assume your 87 does not have an original speedo and was switched out with an 88 or later...
Has it had a speedo change? Maybe. Is it possible that an 88 with the Turbo S option had a 160 MPH speedo? Absolutely. Why did my old 83 944 come without door script panels and no carpeting around the shifter? Why did the factory list a "touring package" (nearly $2K option) on the window stickers of a plethora of 1986 951s and then not provide an option number for it (or a designation telling what it included) in any factory literature? Stranger things have happened.
As I said before, it would be very easy to check on a change - have a look at the factory service stamps inside the booklet... look at mileage from the invoices... talk to the original owner(s). Call this guy and dig a little deeper.... (this has all been discussed before, BTW – we’re not doing anything new).
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?t=364513
An A/C conversion doesn't matter. Details like the fact that it also has over-the-shoulder rear belts - which I've only seen on Turbo S optioned 88s (it was standard for 89 cars), do. I would bet there are split-fold rear seats lurking in there as well. I do believe it is a genuine Turbo S. I also believe it may have had something done with regards to the speedo. Do I think we can say anything intelligent regarding its present condition or past treatment from these pictures (other than the P-haus receipt....)?
No.
Micah