cone filter for 1991 944 S2
10-25-2005, 09:07 PM
#61
Race Director
Originally Posted by volv4life
why are you two still fighting...
you'd be a fool to say if the car had equal drivers, the same suspension mods, and one had more power that they'd still finish the same.
you'd be a fool to say if the car had equal drivers, the same suspension mods, and one had more power that they'd still finish the same.
It's not a question of power, it's a question of smoothness.
The key to autox is smoothness - all inputs - steering, throttle, braking must be smooth, becuase with the car right on the edge of control, any abrupt change in anything, includnig acceleration, will result in loss of that control. My point is that hitting the juice, even a 50-shot, anywhere on the course where the car isn't pointed straight, will result in an abrupt enough change to compromise that control. Heck - even too much throttle on a non-NO2 car at the wrong time can very easily result in a loss of control.
Now you may argue that in order to effectively use NO2 in an autox environment, one can simply back off from the edge, and then one will have room to allow the NO2 to accerate the car more. Problem with that is if you're not on that jagged edge, you're not going fast enough!
Again - Volvo - do you have any experience with AX? If you do, what I state here should sound familiar to you.
-Z-man.
10-25-2005, 09:20 PM
#62
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Makis
The AFM and O2 takes care of the fueling at part throttle and the 3% is not applied with the free flow. However at WOT both O2 and AFM are ignored and standard maps are applied. If you flow more more air through the engine your mixture will be lean which will loose your power. Bringing the mixture back optimum will increase the power.
I have replaced my CAT with standard muffler that was used on early Euro non CAT S2. So the flow is still optimised for low end torque. The benefit of this is that you don't have to worry about the CAT getting clogged up which will definetelly rob you power. I agree that proper de-CAT will rob some low end torque and add a lot more noise but it should give you a bit more top end power. Again fueling will need to be adjusted accordingly for optimal result. Hope this makes my point cleaner.
I have replaced my CAT with standard muffler that was used on early Euro non CAT S2. So the flow is still optimised for low end torque. The benefit of this is that you don't have to worry about the CAT getting clogged up which will definetelly rob you power. I agree that proper de-CAT will rob some low end torque and add a lot more noise but it should give you a bit more top end power. Again fueling will need to be adjusted accordingly for optimal result. Hope this makes my point cleaner.
So even if I didn't do anything to my car, i.e. airbox / CAI or cat removal, my car would benefit from running a little richer at full throttle, especially at DE events, where it's full throttle, full brake entering the corner, and then full throttle again mid way through the corner to exit it.
10-25-2005, 09:47 PM
#63
Originally Posted by Z-man
Not fighting, just debating.
It's not a question of power, it's a question of smoothness.
The key to autox is smoothness - all inputs - steering, throttle, braking must be smooth, becuase with the car right on the edge of control, any abrupt change in anything, includnig acceleration, will result in loss of that control. My point is that hitting the juice, even a 50-shot, anywhere on the course where the car isn't pointed straight, will result in an abrupt enough change to compromise that control. Heck - even too much throttle on a non-NO2 car at the wrong time can very easily result in a loss of control.
Now you may argue that in order to effectively use NO2 in an autox environment, one can simply back off from the edge, and then one will have room to allow the NO2 to accerate the car more. Problem with that is if you're not on that jagged edge, you're not going fast enough!
Again - Volvo - do you have any experience with AX? If you do, what I state here should sound familiar to you.
-Z-man.
It's not a question of power, it's a question of smoothness.
The key to autox is smoothness - all inputs - steering, throttle, braking must be smooth, becuase with the car right on the edge of control, any abrupt change in anything, includnig acceleration, will result in loss of that control. My point is that hitting the juice, even a 50-shot, anywhere on the course where the car isn't pointed straight, will result in an abrupt enough change to compromise that control. Heck - even too much throttle on a non-NO2 car at the wrong time can very easily result in a loss of control.
Now you may argue that in order to effectively use NO2 in an autox environment, one can simply back off from the edge, and then one will have room to allow the NO2 to accerate the car more. Problem with that is if you're not on that jagged edge, you're not going fast enough!
Again - Volvo - do you have any experience with AX? If you do, what I state here should sound familiar to you.
-Z-man.
I'll stand by my argument, if you take two drivers with identical "driver capability", both cars setup exactly the same suspension and weight wise, and then give one more power.. the one with more power will come out on top. as much finesse as you think autox requires, THERE IS ALWAYS a place for more horsepower.
10-25-2005, 10:06 PM
#65
Race Director
Originally Posted by volv4life
I'll stand by my argument, if you take two drivers with identical "driver capability", both cars setup exactly the same suspension and weight wise, and then give one more power.. the one with more power will come out on top. as much finesse as you think autox requires, THERE IS ALWAYS a place for more horsepower.
BTW: You do know my FATF example was tongue in cheek, right? I know that not all NO2 applications push you back in your seat, and that power can be applied more linearly.
And I do agree that there is always a place for more HP at an AX, it's just that you need the right kinda HP, and I don't think NO2 can apply it properly. Now a 968 motor - that's a different story!
-Z-man.
10-25-2005, 10:12 PM
#66
your experiment can easily be proven or defeated.
have fishey run at the auto x w/o N20 on one run, and then with N20 on another.
and yes im aware of the tongue and cheek, my sarcasm underlies most of my posts
have fishey run at the auto x w/o N20 on one run, and then with N20 on another.
and yes im aware of the tongue and cheek, my sarcasm underlies most of my posts
10-25-2005, 10:28 PM
#67
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by Z-man
Though I'm not an 'expect' autocrosser, I'd be willing to test out this little theory - Hmmm - I've got a bone stock 944S2, and Fishey's got a NO2 version....Now to find the proper venue...
BTW: You do know my FATF example was tongue in cheek, right? I know that not all NO2 applications push you back in your seat, and that power can be applied more linearly.
And I do agree that there is always a place for more HP at an AX, it's just that you need the right kinda HP, and I don't think NO2 can apply it properly. Now a 968 motor - that's a different story!
-Z-man.
BTW: You do know my FATF example was tongue in cheek, right? I know that not all NO2 applications push you back in your seat, and that power can be applied more linearly.
And I do agree that there is always a place for more HP at an AX, it's just that you need the right kinda HP, and I don't think NO2 can apply it properly. Now a 968 motor - that's a different story!
-Z-man.
Here is my old setup...
1990 944S2 Cabriolet W/ LSD, Escort Cup Clutch, Koni Yellow Adjustables, M030 Swaybars F&R + Derlin Solid Mount Kits, KLA Monoball Strut Mounts, KLA Front Swaybar Brace, 300# Front Paragon Coilovers, 29mm Rear Torsion Bars, Rennbay "Track Upgrade" GCK, 968 Casterblocks, Weltmeister Suspension Bushings, SS Brakelines, SS Fuellines, Slotted Frozen Rotors, Hawk HPS pads, 33/5 Bias Valve, Full Custom Intake, 8mm Performance Wires, SFR-3" Cat-Back Exhaust, AutoPower "Race" Rollbar + Options, Zex Wet Nitrous Shot, Short Shift Kit, No Interior Soundproofing, Gutted Trunk, 50lbs Cab Weight Delete.
As for the new setup
10-25-2005, 10:49 PM
#68
Race Director
Originally Posted by Fishey
Problem my car is far from stock..
Here is my old setup...
1990 944S2 Cabriolet W/ LSD, Escort Cup Clutch, Koni Yellow Adjustables, M030 Swaybars F&R + Derlin Solid Mount Kits, KLA Monoball Strut Mounts, KLA Front Swaybar Brace, 300# Front Paragon Coilovers, 29mm Rear Torsion Bars, Rennbay "Track Upgrade" GCK, 968 Casterblocks, Weltmeister Suspension Bushings, SS Brakelines, SS Fuellines, Slotted Frozen Rotors, Hawk HPS pads, 33/5 Bias Valve, Full Custom Intake, 8mm Performance Wires, SFR-3" Cat-Back Exhaust, AutoPower "Race" Rollbar + Options, Zex Wet Nitrous Shot, Short Shift Kit, No Interior Soundproofing, Gutted Trunk, 50lbs Cab Weight Delete.
As for the new setup
Here is my old setup...
1990 944S2 Cabriolet W/ LSD, Escort Cup Clutch, Koni Yellow Adjustables, M030 Swaybars F&R + Derlin Solid Mount Kits, KLA Monoball Strut Mounts, KLA Front Swaybar Brace, 300# Front Paragon Coilovers, 29mm Rear Torsion Bars, Rennbay "Track Upgrade" GCK, 968 Casterblocks, Weltmeister Suspension Bushings, SS Brakelines, SS Fuellines, Slotted Frozen Rotors, Hawk HPS pads, 33/5 Bias Valve, Full Custom Intake, 8mm Performance Wires, SFR-3" Cat-Back Exhaust, AutoPower "Race" Rollbar + Options, Zex Wet Nitrous Shot, Short Shift Kit, No Interior Soundproofing, Gutted Trunk, 50lbs Cab Weight Delete.
As for the new setup
-Z.
10-25-2005, 11:09 PM
#70
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Originally Posted by volv4life
Tom,
he never said it was the fastest thing on the planet, he simply said his car would rape yours in straight line acceleration; the s2 could spank your goat, even my volvo could spank your goat. How is this post needed at all?
he never said it was the fastest thing on the planet, he simply said his car would rape yours in straight line acceleration; the s2 could spank your goat, even my volvo could spank your goat. How is this post needed at all?
where have the rennlist leghumpers gone? we need withstarsinhereyes to visit us again.so what doesthe uber S2 and your vulvo do the quarter in?
I leased the gto because it is nondescript and blends in. maybe i should have gone deep under cover and leased a volva. silly me! oh, wait, i leased the gto because i liked the interior and the comfy seats and soundproofing, not because of the quarter mile times. see, where i live, by metropolis one can only go as fast as the mommy in the minivan in front of me.
back to the original post. my Z28 had a callaway CAI. it scooped the air up from the left front corner. with the lowered suspension, it seemed theoretically possible i would pull water in during a rain etc. the box on the S2 is about as far away from the engine as it can get, and as mentioned earlier probably has a ram air effect. save your money.
Last edited by Tom R.; 10-25-2005 at 11:30 PM.
10-25-2005, 11:34 PM
#71
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by Tom R.
spank, rape, whateverrrrr. where have the rennlist leghumpers gone? we need withstarsinhereyes to visit us again.
so what doesthe uber S2 and your vulvo do the quarter in?
I leased the gto because it is nondescript and blends in. maybe i should have gone deep under cover and leased a volva. silly me! oh, wait, i leased the gto because i liked the interior and the comfy seats and soundproofing, not because of the quarter mile times. see, where i live, by metropolis one can only go as fast as the mommy in the minivan in front of me.
back to the original post. my Z28 had a callaway CAI. it scooped the air up from the left front corner. with the lowered suspension, it seemed theoretically possible i would pull water in during a rain etc. the box on the S2 is about as far away from the engine as it can get, and as mentioned earlier probably has a ram air effect. save your money.
where have the rennlist leghumpers gone? we need withstarsinhereyes to visit us again.so what doesthe uber S2 and your vulvo do the quarter in?
I leased the gto because it is nondescript and blends in. maybe i should have gone deep under cover and leased a volva. silly me! oh, wait, i leased the gto because i liked the interior and the comfy seats and soundproofing, not because of the quarter mile times. see, where i live, by metropolis one can only go as fast as the mommy in the minivan in front of me.
back to the original post. my Z28 had a callaway CAI. it scooped the air up from the left front corner. with the lowered suspension, it seemed theoretically possible i would pull water in during a rain etc. the box on the S2 is about as far away from the engine as it can get, and as mentioned earlier probably has a ram air effect. save your money.
Love, Fishey...
10-25-2005, 11:40 PM
#72
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Originally Posted by Fishey
Volva > GTO in interior and the comfy seats and soundproofing..
Love, Fishey...
Love, Fishey...
From your posts i agree with Z's assessment of your driving knowledge, and from your last post i think all your GTO and volva knowledge comes from magazines and brochures. wake up and smell the leather, and alcantara.
10-25-2005, 11:47 PM
#73
if you dont care what the gto does in the quarter why bother asking us what our cars do it in ? you can bash on any car you choose, you seem to be a pretty big troll around here..
i love when people call it a volva... it seems the only thing you resort to are meaningless name calling and flaming... my car knowledge is all self taught. I dont claim to know it all, but i do know that I can walk all over your particular GTO without a problem. Maybe before you make assumptions and attempt to flame me for my experience, you should ask intelligent questions instead of acting like the ignorant *** i see you take on in so many posts prior to this one.
i love when people call it a volva... it seems the only thing you resort to are meaningless name calling and flaming... my car knowledge is all self taught. I dont claim to know it all, but i do know that I can walk all over your particular GTO without a problem. Maybe before you make assumptions and attempt to flame me for my experience, you should ask intelligent questions instead of acting like the ignorant *** i see you take on in so many posts prior to this one.
10-26-2005, 12:40 AM
#74
Race Director
Originally Posted by Fishey
Who says I don't?
So come clean, Mr. Loving Fishey - do you, or have you autocrossed or tracked your car? And by track, I mean a road course like Mid-Ohio, Putnam Park, Watkins Glen...etc. By track, I don't mean that silly little 1/4 mile thingy.
Oh, and to keep this thread on track somewhat: there is a little known mod that you can do to the stock throttle body that may not give you much more hp, but it will definately send cooler air into the car. Allow me to explain:
You will notice that the throttle body of a 944S2 motor has a tube on either side of it. (Not sure of the 951 or 944 n/a's - I think they may have a similar setup). Coolant flows through those tubes. Why? To prevent the throttle body from sticking from frozen humidity that can deposit there in colder areas. IIRC, this condition is called icing. So they warm up the TB by flowing coolant through it to warm up that whole TB.
So, that's great for the winter, but in the summer time, the only thing that running coolant through the TB does is warms up the air a bit. Depending on how hot your car (and coolant) is running, this could be more than a few degrees.
When I was hunting down a coolant leak issue on my car (turned out to be the cracked head), my mechanics bypassed the TB from the coolant system. After my engine was put back together, I told them to keep the bypass on - I rarely drive my car in the winter, and if it gets the air a few degrees lower, why not? Probably good for a 1 horsepower gain. (But it's a BIG horse!!)
Here's a picture of the TB with the bypassed coolant hoses on top, and the 'ports' going into the TB capped off with red caps:
-Z-man.
10-26-2005, 12:43 AM
#75
Race Director
Oh, and as for the whole Volvo vs. GTO thing:
At the end of the day, the Volvo is still a Soccer-mom I-couldn't-afford-a-Merc-so-I-got-this-Swede-mobil people mover. And at the end of the day, the GTO is still a, er, well, plastic-fantastic Pontiac. Call it even!
Sorry, couldn't resist!
-Z-man.
PS: Volvo4ilfe: Do you read Grassroots Motorsports magazine? They have a pretty decent article in this issue about racing them bricks they call Volvo wagons...
At the end of the day, the Volvo is still a Soccer-mom I-couldn't-afford-a-Merc-so-I-got-this-Swede-mobil people mover. And at the end of the day, the GTO is still a, er, well, plastic-fantastic Pontiac. Call it even!
Sorry, couldn't resist!
-Z-man.
PS: Volvo4ilfe: Do you read Grassroots Motorsports magazine? They have a pretty decent article in this issue about racing them bricks they call Volvo wagons...