944Fest (aka Dan P)

Drive it, or one like it. Weren't the early stealths/Gt's 300 beans, later bumped to 320? I too had stealth dreams when they first came out. Bro-in-law had one and I drove it. Heavy, heavy, nice torque but the trans grinded going in to 2nd and the estimate was 2k+. Really, for me the drive was enough to get it off my wish list. I think you should drive an S4, it sounds like just what you need.

Matt H

They ALL grind into 2nd gear and the cost of a trans hasnt gone down.
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UDPride

Cant afford an S4. Much much too expensive. Any price would have to be low enough to sell the 951 and stlil have money left over for a major stake on a winter beater. Even high mileage A4s are $6000. I wouldnt want a 4dr either. If Im giving up the 951 I want replace it with another sports car and better be getting some ponies and AWD. Supra and 300ZX arent AWD.

Yeah Dan the VR4s had 320hp. Im thinking a VR4 would be a great poor-mans 928S4 as a daily driver, with better grip. The 928s arent exactly Porsches bantonweights.

FSAEracer03

I'd like to kindly burst your bubble, Chris, if I may

1) Interior comfort: I'm not sure how you consider the 951 10x worse than the VR4. Personally, I think my 951 is actually the most comfy/ergo car I've ever been in. That's one reason I decided on it! The VR4 has skyscraper door sills and bad visibility not to mention a higher center console and seats that don't feel as good (on my *** and back) as the 951's.

2) Practicality: That's a moot point. Neither car is practical except when talking about rain and LIGHT snow performance... then the answer is obvious. It's not like the VR4 will be going through more than a couple inches of snow unless you are trying to plow the road/driveway.

3) Reliability: That was the part that got to me the most. The cost of owning a VR4 isn't cheap and the car doesn't follow the general Japanese mantra of "never see me broken down." The are a royal pain in the *** to fix (don't ever try switching to a twin-plate clutch in a parking lot!!) and don't have cheap parts, aftermarket or dealer.

4) Fun factor: the VR4 is a pig. I love how they look, I love how they drive and steer all 4 wheels from an engineering aspect (as well as the active aero...if it still works), but the fact is they weigh almost 2 tons. The 320hp is sapped by the AWD system and doesn't push the weight around well. Here's what I mean... an est. comparo of a VR4 against the standard 951 with chips assuming a 22% friction loss in the AWD system:

VR4 - 3750lbs. - whp: 320*(.78)= 250 - 15.0 lb./whp
951 - 2900lbs. - whp: 220 - 13.2 lb./whp

As you can see.... 320 isn't all that much with that AWD system and all that weight. I can tell you firsthand... even lightly modified VR4s aren't all that quick.

It's funny I notice this thread just after seeing a hot 2nd gen. on the way back from my engines final exam... I never really liked the looks of the cars that much, but this one was dead sexy. I remembered my old roomates 1st gen. that was modified with mixed memories... but actually compared the cars in my mind looking at it... Chris, go drive the car. I guarantee you won't want to part with the 951.

PS.... I would recommend a DSM. Cheaper, easier to fix, lighter...

Sam Lin

Have you thought about selling the 951 and using the money to buy the WRX at the end of the lease?

Sam

BeerBurner

I have no personal experience with the VR4, but the stories I have heard aren't confidence-inspiring. Plus, I hear their brakes suck. A friend watched a couple doing DE's at Summit Point, and before the 20-minute session was over, the drivers had to pump the brakes to the floor, release and hit them again to get them to work. They faded that badly. Granted, for a daily-driver, this probably isn't an issue. But I wanted to bring it up because I didn't see it mentioned before (might have missed it, tho...).

BB.

MPD47

Not reading the entire 3 pages of the post (Sorry I'm lazy today). Going off your original post I wonder..... why do you need AWD if you dont plan on driving it in the winter? I drove my 951 in the winter, I cannot fathom why you cant drive a VR4 in the snow. Keep in mind, I'm also from rochester, we have snow October - May.

UDPride

I dont want to buy the WRX. Its not worth giving up the 951 for.

A lot of you are still hammering this comparison to the 951. I cant stress this enough, I could care less how it performs compared to a 951. Im going to be driving this thing in bumper traffic, through potholes, in the city, on the highway, parking it in bad neighborhoods all day. Etc etc.

Considering I dont life a single screwdriver to work on my 951, I dont think anyone can convince me a VR4 is a lot more troublesome than a 951. Jeez I spent $3,000 in PREVENTIVE maintenance on the 951 about 3yrs ago and have put about 1400 miles on it since and before I took the car in for all that service it drove fine. I didnt notice a damn bit of difference when i drove it home, I just knew I was $3000 poorer. Now the car needs nothing. I could drive it every day and it would be reliable, but thats what $3000 buys you.

That said, I dont race anybody on the way to work, I dont need any "out of body experience" on the way to work in terms of driving. Im not even enamored with this whole VR4 idea just yet, but yo could honestly substitute "VR4" with "928S4" and all of your complaints would be pretty similar, however I wonder if they would have been said or not because its a pcar.

No doubt I love the 951. My first pcar and I got it just a couple years out of college. It took me 3yrs to find a graphite one too. Its completely unliveable however to drive on a daily basis. The suspension and rough edges of that car leave my brain and back crippled. I steer around even the smallest potholes because it just hurts so much to feel them violently whack the car like its being hit by a bus. My other quip with it as a daily is I cant drive it in the rain. Loses all handling. I guess Im just use to doing 85 in a torrential downpour and feeling glued down.

For a weekend car, its the absolute best though. But I ask myself, "how many weekend cars do I need" and "do you need two weekend cars when you drive both a total of 5000 miles a year?".

If that booger who was supposed to sell me the SVX didnt seem to fall off the planet, I would not be having this discussion. Id keep the pcars and just buy it. CURSES!

Matt H

What UD is saying is that he already has a "fun" car in the 930, now he wants something to beat up around town while driving to work. It MUST be AWD. He doesnt do his own work so he doesnt care how hard it is to work on and he isnt concerned about the maintenance cost (I was convinced he was into internet **** but I saw him at the 944 fest and that burst that bubble )
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500

As I was reading through this post, a reply started to form in my mind, but Sam beat me to it... Why not consider the WRX? It will be more $ but I do believe it will be a more reliable ride in the long run (that Mitsu 5 speed makes the WRX 5 speed look like an exemplar of durability and strength...). It can stay your year round car.

As always, you must go with what's right for you. But in this particular case, I would opt to keep the 951 and get a very basic used Toyota Corolla or similar and splurge on excellent winter tires for it.

Edit: I just saw your reply vis-a vis NO WRX...

Wouldn't the 951's behaviour in heavy rain be more a function of tires and power delivery?

As I think more about this, it seems that perhaps as much as you admire the 951, you're just not wanting it that much. It's hard to put miles on it... which is pretty telltale at where your head is at. Drive the Mitsu and if it works for you, get it.

UDPride

Yeah you pretty much hit it on the head though. Im just trying to keep all my options open and not dip into much of my cash reserves.

My favorite plan is to still find a nice SVX.

MPD47

I'm still confused with you mentioning buying a beater. But purchasing an AWD car....

Matt H

We all have different definitions of "beater."
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inactiveuser92616

might want to look into a 90's model Toyota celica alltrac, those are neat little cars. 1991 Isuzu Impulse RS is an awesome little AWD turbo pocket rocket as well, but good luck finding one.

MPD47

I understand Matt. Beater is a very different term depending on wha you are talking about. But the quote is what I'm refering to. If you're buying AWD, why bother with anything else?