Who Has painted Their Own Car - Calling Damian & Others
11-10-2004, 10:53 PM
#1
Three Wheelin'
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Who Has painted Their Own Car - Calling Damian & Others
My '87 looks great from a few feet away but frankly? The paint needs redoing. Poor repair in one area, rock chips on front, Turbo valnce to be added, keyed on left rear quarter panel. Overall it shows MUCH better thant that description, but I know I want to paint it.
I know about using all products from one mfg. I know it needs to be largely disassembled, glass out, doors, hood off, all rubber to be replaced. (Maybe change out the dash while apart?)
Now, just how big a bitch (pardon my French) is this job? The physical disassembly I can do. Making my garage into a paint booth and properly carrying out all the steps I wonder about. And how much would I really be saving? Should I just pay the money? I am assuming it would be $3,000 IF I do most of the disassembly/reassemby myself. Comments?
Anyone with pictures to post of the process with before/after shots?
I know about using all products from one mfg. I know it needs to be largely disassembled, glass out, doors, hood off, all rubber to be replaced. (Maybe change out the dash while apart?)
Now, just how big a bitch (pardon my French) is this job? The physical disassembly I can do. Making my garage into a paint booth and properly carrying out all the steps I wonder about. And how much would I really be saving? Should I just pay the money? I am assuming it would be $3,000 IF I do most of the disassembly/reassemby myself. Comments?
Anyone with pictures to post of the process with before/after shots?
11-10-2004, 11:08 PM
#2
Nordschleife Master
The real work in doing the paint job is the surface prep. All of the sanding, priming and patching can go on for a looong time. The final paint job doesn't hide anything. Overall the prep work is a lot of labor and once it looks good under primer then it'll be fine. Using spray can for prep is OK, but get better paint.
Doing the final paint job is harder than you might expect. Getting the paint on wet enough, but not running, takes a lot of touch. And the primer, surfacer, sealant, paint and clearcoat are different in application. And metallic paints are even harder.
You don't want to screw it up and have to sand the car down. Or put on ten coats. If you haven't painted before, then I suggest finding someone who's good at it and will squirt the car for you. Otherwise find the $$ for the job you want...or get the best job for the $$ you've got.
Doing the final paint job is harder than you might expect. Getting the paint on wet enough, but not running, takes a lot of touch. And the primer, surfacer, sealant, paint and clearcoat are different in application. And metallic paints are even harder.
You don't want to screw it up and have to sand the car down. Or put on ten coats. If you haven't painted before, then I suggest finding someone who's good at it and will squirt the car for you. Otherwise find the $$ for the job you want...or get the best job for the $$ you've got.
11-10-2004, 11:20 PM
#3
Three Wheelin'
Painting is actually quite easy you just need to practice it a bit. The big pain is the prep work as mentioned before. You don't neccessarily need to remove everything but just know that if you don't you will have tape lines if someone is really meticulous and wants to look. The main keys to painting are cleanliness, and good base work. That being said a paintjob done in a garage is going to have a significant amount of dust on it no matter how careful you think you are being.
I repainted my 924 in high school and used a professional spray booth in the body shop and I still got some dust in the paint . Here are the only pictures I have of the car that are on the computer since I didn't have a digital camera back then. http://www.freewebs.com/azndrgn/porsche924.htm Just so you have an idea I spent 2 years prepping this car for paint and then 2 days to shoot the paint and clear coat. This car was shot using the Dupont Chroma system with 3 coats of silver metallics and then 3 coats of clear. Total cost using zinc based primer to seal the bare metal and then polyurethane primer and then paint and clear coat was $2000 in materials.
I repainted my 924 in high school and used a professional spray booth in the body shop and I still got some dust in the paint . Here are the only pictures I have of the car that are on the computer since I didn't have a digital camera back then. http://www.freewebs.com/azndrgn/porsche924.htm Just so you have an idea I spent 2 years prepping this car for paint and then 2 days to shoot the paint and clear coat. This car was shot using the Dupont Chroma system with 3 coats of silver metallics and then 3 coats of clear. Total cost using zinc based primer to seal the bare metal and then polyurethane primer and then paint and clear coat was $2000 in materials.
11-11-2004, 01:45 AM
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DAn I just soent about the last 30 minutes typing up a nice writ up for you, and I hit the WRONG DAM BUTTON..........I almost smashed my freakin computer...! But anyways I will pm you my# fell free to give me a call anytime after 5 pm I will tell you everyting you want to know...
DAmian
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11-11-2004, 08:34 AM
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I painted one of my 944s about 4 years ago and I am in the process of painting another one I recently bought. I have access to a paint booth so that makes things easier but as stated before surface prep is the BIG issue here. I hand sanded off the original clear coat ane color coat and tried to leave the original primer. Starting with the metal, there is a gray coat of primer and then a whitish coat of primer of top. I was told that you will never get the primer to stick any better than the factory did so I hand sanded and left as much of the primer as I could. Stand ready with some bare metal primer as you will accedently go throught to the metal in small areas, especially on the corners and edges. I then put Dupont URO primer on the entire car and then sanded with 400. You can easily get that far in your garage and deffer a whole lot of costs and have a surface that is prepped better than what a shop would do.
11-11-2004, 11:12 AM
#7
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Everyone - thanks. Damian, sorry the question caused you so much wasted work. I really appreciate the effort on my behalf. By the way, the PM you sent went to my work computer and I won't be back there until Monday, sorry.
Sounds to me like this is just a LOT of manhours. Maybe not beyond my abilities if I didn't work full time but.....
As for my garage, I suppose I could probably rent a spray booth. I know I would have to grind out some half assed Bondo on the lower passenger door...but I don't know what I'd find beyond that.
i suppose I could practicw my spraying abilities on the door and on the Turbo valence. I painted a '67 Mustang in college, but that was a longass time ago! Materials and spray equipment have changed a lot since then. Sounds to me like I ought to get some solid, no BS estimates in hand before I consider this further. Thanks for the heads up everyone.
P.S. Damian, you are doing some nice work on that car. You ought to be very proud
Sounds to me like this is just a LOT of manhours. Maybe not beyond my abilities if I didn't work full time but.....
As for my garage, I suppose I could probably rent a spray booth. I know I would have to grind out some half assed Bondo on the lower passenger door...but I don't know what I'd find beyond that.
i suppose I could practicw my spraying abilities on the door and on the Turbo valence. I painted a '67 Mustang in college, but that was a longass time ago! Materials and spray equipment have changed a lot since then. Sounds to me like I ought to get some solid, no BS estimates in hand before I consider this further. Thanks for the heads up everyone.
P.S. Damian, you are doing some nice work on that car. You ought to be very proud
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11-11-2004, 02:09 PM
#9
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The Job - Good self labor always takes a lot of man-hours. I have over 800 man-hours in my paint, $1200 in materials. The step by step is pretty easy, but you need to have everything in place for it to work. Start researching your materials now. Are you going to do a single stage lacquer/enamel finish? What paint? Do they have a paint line? (primer, base, clear) Planning will allow you to use the correct products to obtain the best finish. The proper chip guard material (under the doors for most Porsche models) to apply on to your new primer is crucial. MAKE SURE YOU GET COMPATIBLE MATERIALS. I have seen many repaints that lift or chip horribly because they used what was cheap or easy. Some of this stuff must be applied and base coated within 15 minutes.
Prep-
-Remove everything externally that you don't want sanded or painted.
-Block or Orbital sand with 450 grit paper until factory primer begins to bleed through
-Sand doorjambs, fender creases, mating points, etc very well. Edges are the most common place for paint problems. Many painters do not take the time to prep edges and small areas when they paint
Tape and paper:
-Use good 3m Tape. Tape from the Dollar Store is not going to stick well or hold up to the reducers and thinners in primer and paint. Also use wax coated painter’s paper, not newspaper.
-The trick to a good taping job is hiding the line. Use natural splits in the body. For example, everyone hates to paint the doorjambs because there is no place to tape. Well buddy… there are lots of places, but you have to find it. On the door itself, remove the inner panel and glass. (removal of all the guts would be best) Now you can shoot the whole door and not have any tape lines. On the jamb itself, under the black plastic kick piece there is a body joint where the inner and outer bodies come together. Tape up to that joint. This is a common joint on any Uni-body based car.. pretty much any car.
-Once everything is taped and papered, use your paint brands Prep-Sol to wipe down the surface of any oils or dirt.
-Once Pre-Sol Flashes over, use an automotive tack-rag to get any last bits of dirt.
Primer:
-Apply 2 medium heavy coats of an etching primer for enamel. (even if you are painting with laquer, the OEM base primer is enamel)
-Use 1/2 used crappy cans of paint to lightly dust some color onto the new primer.
-Using the colored haze as a guide for high and low spots, block sand with 600 until body is smooth. Bondo or gelcoat the low areas, grate and sand smooth.
-Repeat primer/filler step until body is smooth
-Repeat tape and paper
Paint:
-Shooting paint is the fun and easy part of the job. You can teach yourself how to paint, but if you run, drip, spatter, etc, the whole process must stop and that error corrected. If you paint over your mistakes, they will show. The crappy part is if you are using activated paint.. you only have a short time to make the repairs. If you are to this point on a car and have never shot paint, find something else to practice on. Ask a junkyard if you can paint on some of their junk (with cheap paint!) then come back and play with your expensive stuff.
-Following the application procedure for the paint, shoot it on.
-If adding chip guards, mask off the area to be shot, but mask it in 1 removable section. The chip guard I used had a 15 minute flash time. If the base coat is not on within 40 minutes, the base coat will not adhere to the chip guard. It will look fine, but once that first chip happens, it's gonna come off in sheets. I have 12,000 miles on my new paint and 0 chips where I used the chip guard. (Unfortunately I do have some pretty bad chips in other areas, a write up of that is coming soon.)
-Stay close to your suggested flash times and monitor your temp and barometer thought the day. (www.weather.com) Adjust your mixes accordingly.
Finishing:
-Probably the second most important step, after prep work. It's also the most skipped step. Proper finishing makes the paint have depth and the glass-like shine everyone wants.
-WITHIN 7 days of paint cure, begin block wet sanding with 1000, 1200, or 1500 grit paper, depending on what you need to remove. (Blemishes, orange peel, blocking). Like prep for primer, you must pay attention to the edges and small areas. Remove orange peel by hand. Do not sand the edges of panels, rather sand up to them. The buffing process will blend them together.
Buffing:
-Once the entire surface is block sanded flat and smooth, bust out the 1500rpm industrial buffer. (Your orbital won't do squat here)
-During your homework before the project, you found the suggested compounds for your paint. You should have 3 different types, with 3 different types of wheels.
1. Wool wheel with heavy grit, 1000 or less.
2. Wool wheel with medium machine glaze, 1500 or less.
3. Foam/Natural Cell wheel with finishing glaze, 2000 or less.
-The 3 different steps work like wet sanding, each step up leaving finer scratches.
-Take your time buffing and work on 1 panel at a time, 2X2 areas at a time. Clean the panels when you are finished, before moving to the next panel. Once the whole car is done with one compound, WASH it extremely well. Get toothbrushes and Q-tips... lots of them, and make sure there is no compound or grit anywhere. If you have 1000 grit on the car and it gets in your 2000 grit finishing wheel, the results are not good. Think about dragging a sharp pebble across your newly painted hood... just in smaller detail, at 1500rpm.
-Lather, rinse, repeat for all 3 compounds.
Paint Protection:
-No wax for 15 months, but feel free to let the car get some sun.
-3M Hand Glaze or Speed Shine from Griot’s Garage have UV protectants in them. They are both easy to apply and leave a very clean look. Since they are water soluble, rain and washes mean re-applying, but you'll want to because your paint looks so damn good.
-After 15 months and a few hundred gallons of Speed Shine, apply a quality wax once a month, clay bar once every 6 months.
The payoff - When you are asked.. "Who did your paint?" and you get to say, "Me, bottom to top, want me to do yours?"
Check my site in a few days for this write up and the pictures to go with it. Some old; lot’s new. Hope your paint turns out well.
Prep-
-Remove everything externally that you don't want sanded or painted.
-Block or Orbital sand with 450 grit paper until factory primer begins to bleed through
-Sand doorjambs, fender creases, mating points, etc very well. Edges are the most common place for paint problems. Many painters do not take the time to prep edges and small areas when they paint
Tape and paper:
-Use good 3m Tape. Tape from the Dollar Store is not going to stick well or hold up to the reducers and thinners in primer and paint. Also use wax coated painter’s paper, not newspaper.
-The trick to a good taping job is hiding the line. Use natural splits in the body. For example, everyone hates to paint the doorjambs because there is no place to tape. Well buddy… there are lots of places, but you have to find it. On the door itself, remove the inner panel and glass. (removal of all the guts would be best) Now you can shoot the whole door and not have any tape lines. On the jamb itself, under the black plastic kick piece there is a body joint where the inner and outer bodies come together. Tape up to that joint. This is a common joint on any Uni-body based car.. pretty much any car.
-Once everything is taped and papered, use your paint brands Prep-Sol to wipe down the surface of any oils or dirt.
-Once Pre-Sol Flashes over, use an automotive tack-rag to get any last bits of dirt.
Primer:
-Apply 2 medium heavy coats of an etching primer for enamel. (even if you are painting with laquer, the OEM base primer is enamel)
-Use 1/2 used crappy cans of paint to lightly dust some color onto the new primer.
-Using the colored haze as a guide for high and low spots, block sand with 600 until body is smooth. Bondo or gelcoat the low areas, grate and sand smooth.
-Repeat primer/filler step until body is smooth
-Repeat tape and paper
Paint:
-Shooting paint is the fun and easy part of the job. You can teach yourself how to paint, but if you run, drip, spatter, etc, the whole process must stop and that error corrected. If you paint over your mistakes, they will show. The crappy part is if you are using activated paint.. you only have a short time to make the repairs. If you are to this point on a car and have never shot paint, find something else to practice on. Ask a junkyard if you can paint on some of their junk (with cheap paint!) then come back and play with your expensive stuff.
-Following the application procedure for the paint, shoot it on.
-If adding chip guards, mask off the area to be shot, but mask it in 1 removable section. The chip guard I used had a 15 minute flash time. If the base coat is not on within 40 minutes, the base coat will not adhere to the chip guard. It will look fine, but once that first chip happens, it's gonna come off in sheets. I have 12,000 miles on my new paint and 0 chips where I used the chip guard. (Unfortunately I do have some pretty bad chips in other areas, a write up of that is coming soon.)
-Stay close to your suggested flash times and monitor your temp and barometer thought the day. (www.weather.com) Adjust your mixes accordingly.
Finishing:
-Probably the second most important step, after prep work. It's also the most skipped step. Proper finishing makes the paint have depth and the glass-like shine everyone wants.
-WITHIN 7 days of paint cure, begin block wet sanding with 1000, 1200, or 1500 grit paper, depending on what you need to remove. (Blemishes, orange peel, blocking). Like prep for primer, you must pay attention to the edges and small areas. Remove orange peel by hand. Do not sand the edges of panels, rather sand up to them. The buffing process will blend them together.
Buffing:
-Once the entire surface is block sanded flat and smooth, bust out the 1500rpm industrial buffer. (Your orbital won't do squat here)
-During your homework before the project, you found the suggested compounds for your paint. You should have 3 different types, with 3 different types of wheels.
1. Wool wheel with heavy grit, 1000 or less.
2. Wool wheel with medium machine glaze, 1500 or less.
3. Foam/Natural Cell wheel with finishing glaze, 2000 or less.
-The 3 different steps work like wet sanding, each step up leaving finer scratches.
-Take your time buffing and work on 1 panel at a time, 2X2 areas at a time. Clean the panels when you are finished, before moving to the next panel. Once the whole car is done with one compound, WASH it extremely well. Get toothbrushes and Q-tips... lots of them, and make sure there is no compound or grit anywhere. If you have 1000 grit on the car and it gets in your 2000 grit finishing wheel, the results are not good. Think about dragging a sharp pebble across your newly painted hood... just in smaller detail, at 1500rpm.
-Lather, rinse, repeat for all 3 compounds.
Paint Protection:
-No wax for 15 months, but feel free to let the car get some sun.
-3M Hand Glaze or Speed Shine from Griot’s Garage have UV protectants in them. They are both easy to apply and leave a very clean look. Since they are water soluble, rain and washes mean re-applying, but you'll want to because your paint looks so damn good.
-After 15 months and a few hundred gallons of Speed Shine, apply a quality wax once a month, clay bar once every 6 months.
The payoff - When you are asked.. "Who did your paint?" and you get to say, "Me, bottom to top, want me to do yours?"
Check my site in a few days for this write up and the pictures to go with it. Some old; lot’s new. Hope your paint turns out well.
Last edited by Perry 951; 11-11-2004 at 02:38 PM.
11-11-2004, 02:43 PM
#11
Thinking outside da' bun...
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Damn Perry!
Uhhh. That sounds like a lot of work. Me hire it done. I can paint a picket fence and thats about it.
Uhhh. That sounds like a lot of work. Me hire it done. I can paint a picket fence and thats about it.
11-11-2004, 02:43 PM
#12
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I felt bad that you lost your post... I'm sure it was an excellent write up. Tell you what, we'll use your pictures and my tutorial and I'll host it on my site. Deal?
I thought I'd take the morning and help out. I've been a laggard lately. You can tell it's winter, the list is grumbling... "What can I spend my bonus on!!" LOL!
UD has a wonderful white picket fence to hide his toys.
Yup.... by my self. Hell, I restored the vast majority of the whole car.
I thought I'd take the morning and help out. I've been a laggard lately. You can tell it's winter, the list is grumbling... "What can I spend my bonus on!!" LOL!
UD has a wonderful white picket fence to hide his toys.
Yup.... by my self. Hell, I restored the vast majority of the whole car.
11-11-2004, 02:58 PM
#14
Three Wheelin'
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Again thanks Perry for that.....I bet with me, you, XBoost, and a few others from the list, if we all got together for a week in a well set-up garage with a ton of nice parts...we could turn a ratty 944 into the KING of Rennlist....That would be awesome...If I ever win the lottery I would fly you guys on over and we would do it...! And then auction the car off on Rennlist or something for fun....Make one kid very very happy.....
DAmian
DAmian