Dan in Pasadena

The 911 guys don't seem to be as "fast on the draw" as we are. Need fast advice from any early 911-knowledgeable guys here. Before you say it, yes, PPI, but otherwise here's the info:

A local shop just put out a '71 911T that the widow of the original owner has had sitting around for months since owner died. Shop bought it from widow, they are selling. Here's what I know:

-Odometer indicates 47,700+ miles. 3 page receipt for over $10,000 engine rebuild in 12/01 indicates mileage then was 45,200+ miles. So less than 3 years ago, less than 3K miles since! This shop is not familiar with the rebuild shop, but complimentary of the detailed work done.

-Reviewed receipts, it does not indicate replacement of P/C's (for THAT price?!) but everything else, valve guides, all main and rod bearings, case halves surfaced, align bored, you name it, it was done or replaced/rebuilt/machined.

-Why would this be necessary IF it has 45,000 miles...or even 145,000 miles? It does have the chain tensioner upgrade, it does have the Carerra valve covers.

-There is an oil cooler in the right front wheel well (not original to T's, right?) but the fittings are AN's, Blue and Red anodized, though covered with ordinary road grime and were hard to notice.

-Original dark green (Irish? I love it)

-15" Fuchs,Yokohama Avid HR tires (??) w/ good rubber.

-Older Recaro seats, carpet is original, old and worn but not torn or abused.

-Has the flag mirrors "update" and a lame third brake light. Also, (I didn't know this) it has the covers below both doors along the sides, what are they called? This isn't original?

-Undercarraige is almost pefectly dry. Some seepage at oil drain plug and some on bottom of oil tank, but all in all, this is a dry solid car to appearences.

-Car appears all original in and out except the pebbled undercoat around the wheel well lip is missing on the left front, all others are original. No rust of any kind I can find. Missing door stop from drivers door and appears has been over-opened so slight misalignment of door bottom, sticks out about 1/8 inch.
Missing front fog lights, but the openings are there. Is that normal?

- Has something called "Perma Tune" electronic ignition box in left side of engine compartment. An old MSD type approach?

-Zenith "40 TIN" carbs? Original? They are obviously rebuilt. Much to be gained from Webers? Cost? Gain? Owner's Manual indicates Engine number, where do I find it on the engine? Is matching original numbers valuable for a non-S car?

-VIN 9111102530 What's it mean?

-Engine is dry, clean, hoses all fresh, fasteners not covered with any oil or dirt, the rebuild work still shows.

-"Cross bars" welded to top and bottom of rear bumperettes with upright chrome tubes that must have been for? Bike rack? Ski rack? All chromed, appears to be an old mod.

-Asking price $10,500.

-Car runs strong, transaxle has some howl for lack of a better term. No grinding, the usual vague (to me) 901 trans. I think with a new headliner (stained, not torn), carpet kit, and general touch up-color sand-polish, it would look great. Eventual high dollar paint job would make the car awesome. My interest is permanent ownership, stewardship,- but I still think it is a good investment from a financial standpoint. It will replace my well sorted '87 944. Please advise, must decide something very soon, it won't last.

P.S. Idles at about indicated "20" (psi?) at speed indicates about "60" on oil pressure guage...good? Appropriate for relatively fresh rebuild?
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UDPride

I dunno, $10,500 sounds a little high to me for a 71. Mileage is low, sounds like car runs well and has good bones, but the clothes are Goodwill. Id expect a little more polish for that price. Im not an early 911 expert just what Ive seen or read. I guess I have to see it in order to read it. Anyway.

Ive seen guys picking up 84-86 911s for $13,000. higher mileages but a nice well cared for car. A little perspective considering the 84-89s are a LOT more car.

BC

The 71 draw more cach because they can. Rust issues is a big one as I can see being un-911 so far. Those guys SHOULD eventually respond.

Dan in Pasadena

UD, the 84-89's are "more" car, yes and no. Obviously more technologically sophisticated, more powerful. But also less true to the original.

I've been watching these early car prices too, and while this price doesn't strike me as truly low...it would have to be about 7-8000 for that... it does strike me as right on, especially with a totally rebuilt engine. It also strikes me like the value will climb hard in the next few years considering how the 356's went up.

I almost bought a '66 912 in '01 for $6500 when I bought my 944 (for $5500) and now they have gone up considerably...and my 944 has gone?? Flat at best. I really do think this car will be a $20K car someday and my 944 never will, not in my lifetime.

joseph mitro

i'm no expert but i've looked at a few early 911s and owned a 66 912 with a 911 engine. rust is the biggest thing to watch out for. take it for a drive and see how it runs. is the steering connected and the suspension firm?

with a rebuilt engine, sounds like a pretty fair deal. especially with no significant leaks, which the early cars are known for.

EDIT - Dan, i wouldn't be surprised to see the early 911 values go up over the next 10 years. of course, they would have to be well-cared for

Tom R.

vin is before 82 so the 911 means 911, rest is a sequence.

T is the middle of the line I believe, green if lime is not a money color. even if dark green not a money color. my keith martin/Jim Schrager porsche book is in the downtown office and i am in midtown for two weeks so I cant look stuff up.

i think it is the long wheelbase, mid level model. not sure which carbs came with which model. price is realistic if there never was rust and the car is a survivor. I think it is a fair price considering you are paying for the motor and getting the rest for free.

the car will definitely appreciate better than a 912, and will always have a resale market.

joseph mitro

actually, T was the lowest level, E was mid-level, and S was top of the line.

short wheelbase stopped in 1968. i THINK the Zenith carbs are standard. I believe the webers were for the S models. could be wrong, though.

Dan in Pasadena

Thanks guys. Yes, I'm clear the T is mid line - I hear the S; while very desireable, has its power much higher up the RPM range than the T. Wonder if this is true? So Zeniths are std, ok. I wonder what upgrading to Webers would do?

I think the color is Irish Green. It is the dark green. Personally I like it a lot, but most want what? Classic red, black or silver? I like Signal orange myself. I am talking myself into buying this car, but am wondering about my 944? Can't keep it, I drive a Dodge Ram QuadCab 4x4 daily, so two Porsches as non-daily drivers just ain't in the cards..damn.

bloodraven

Man oh man....me wantey!!!

Chris Martin

Rust is the key. Check the front pan, especially under the battery boxes where the front control arms mount. Also the rockers, door posts and rear torsion bar area are all known for rust. The vin sounds like a targa, right? Here's some info... http://www.adelgigs.com/911vin%20numbers.shtml

UDPride

By more car I meant in nearly every way the 84-89s are a better car. Better performance, better HVAC, better reliability, better handling, better driving, etc etc.

That said, you bring up a valid point. Were it just about all that Id have a 964T so having that original feel does have a worth. The question is, how much are you willing to pay for it. Personally, a 32yr old car would scare me a bit, especially considering I could get a car 12-13yrs newer for marginally more. If the price gap was quite large, I might opt for old school and choose the 71.

All things being equal I love an old school 911 myself. Just trying to add the levity.

Elephant Chuck

I will echo the above comments about rust. This was before galvanized was used on the 911 so the cars are highly susceptable. You need to look EVERYWHERE.

Common places -

- battery boxes
- front pan
- rear tray
- rear seat
- rockers/jack reciever
- base of A pillers

Check everywhere. When you are done checking and find no rust, go through it again to find the rust you missed.

Odd the car was rebuilt at 45k miles. But I'm sure the P&Cs where fine at that point. Possible a mis-shift caused a mechanical overev requiring the rebuild.

If the rust is minimal, engine checks out, and suspension/brakes are reasonable $10,500 is decent price for a T. Yes, you can get a SC for that much and Carrera for a bit more. But they are very different cars. The early cars (pre-74) are special and the people who buy them want early cars. They're prices cannot be compared to the later cars, they are an entinty onto themselves. If you want a later car, get one.

Have several thousand in reserve to maintain this car and properly handle any surprises. It is 32 years old.

ACG

How about this 69 Turbo for $6,900?

http://portland.craigslist.org/car/46852113.html

I might have snapped this up, except that I won't be returning to the States for another couple of years.

Dan in Pasadena

UD and Chuck, Yeah. I am totally aware that rust is the issue and no matter how close I look, there are still always other places to look. I am at decision time right about now. It's about 4:30 a.m. and I'm here on the 'List....so I've been thinking about it all night. The timing for spending 10K could be a lot better (my son is getting married in Spring).

Main worries for me is:

Rust - I'm old enough to remember dealing with this as an ordinary consideration, do I want to deal with that again/forever? I used to innocently just wash my cars weekly and not consider getting water everywhere. But now? Will I be keeping it under a cover constantly? (Yes!) Washing it with a spray bottle and wiping each spritz? or will using compressed air to get all residual water out be a good idea or a terrible one?

How will I adapt to the "car-of-an-earlier-era" feel that all 911's have? I've noted elsewhere my 944 is well sorted out now and I had to adapt to it from a '95 Volvo 850T-R. I've always LOVED 911's, especially the early cars - this car was brand new my senior year of high school..it was my dream car then that I remember thinking, " I will NEVER be able to afford that car"...well, now I can. But now, let's face it...it's older than a lot of you! But it's a true classic likr I've always wanted, and my 944 never will be.

Last, I turn 50 friggin years old in about 5 weeks. Happy birthday-to-me? Yes, and maybe that's all I want at this point. A classic for a classic....ha, ha. Maybe I'll just swallow hard and buy it and deal with the repercussions afterward. I suppose if everything went to hell or I couldn't get used to it, I could always sell it!

P.S. Chuck, yeah, rebuild at 45,000? Does this car have only 5 digits on the odometer? Could it be 145,000 or even 245,000 (eek!)? I don't get it. The car is way too tight feeling to have 245K miles, even 145K, I just can't imagine it that old with less than 50,000 miles!! I also don't get spending THAT much without getting pistons and cylinders. This was the original owner, probably an older man (he died recently) would he drive that hard? Would he have been likely to miss a shift on a car he's driven for 35 years?

Andrew, The "T" doesn't mean Turbo. It's a model designation. Actually, it stood for Touring. There were no Porsche turbocharged production cars in the 60's. Just thought someone should tell you.

Tom R.

I bought my RX7 convertible new as a 30th to myself, legend coupe as a 35th, my first S2 at almost 39 as a 40th. I say go for it. Happy Birthday. If you dont like it in a year sell it and find another 944. there are enough of them out there.

Go for it. OH, and happy birthday!