10 Speaker System Removal '89 Turbo (Pictures)
09-25-2004, 12:38 AM
#31
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Robby,
I mentioned to you about mounting the amp under the glove box when we spoke last month.... No infringement their Ha ha ...
I also mentioned to you I mounted the rear amp in the spare tire well, against the wall fits there nicely and it never overheated .... (there is a good deal of room in that area)
Panasonic has a new deck listed in Crutchfield @ 60w RMS- some new computer process- decks keep ending up like that, then, I'll get one & drop the damn amp ;-)
Those head units have a great deal of distortion.
regards
Ed
I mentioned to you about mounting the amp under the glove box when we spoke last month.... No infringement their Ha ha ...
I also mentioned to you I mounted the rear amp in the spare tire well, against the wall fits there nicely and it never overheated .... (there is a good deal of room in that area)
Panasonic has a new deck listed in Crutchfield @ 60w RMS- some new computer process- decks keep ending up like that, then, I'll get one & drop the damn amp ;-)
Those head units have a great deal of distortion.
regards
Ed
09-25-2004, 05:13 AM
#32
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Interesting about the Panasonic deck... I THOUGHT you had told me that about the glove box amp- I can't install the amp in the rear w/out buying new RCA's, etc & re-setting the whole damn thing up- not going to happen- I wanted it as close as possibe to the deck- might not have been the best idea, but, I did it....
SO- when you mounted the amp under the glovebox, how did you do it? Did you drill straight through the plastic & bolt it in at the outer four points of the amp, or, did you use the front edge &/or something else, like Jon did? I'm just wondering if the plastic would be strong enough to support the amp w/just four bolts, w/out cracking, etc, w/the car driving over bumps, etc... any input??? Any pics of your install? Ever had a prob getting to the ECU or anything, like jon mentioned? Still not sure how this is possible, but, will look into it, as the car is downstairs right now & I don't intend to do anything w/it till tommorrow night....
Thanks a lot,
SO- when you mounted the amp under the glovebox, how did you do it? Did you drill straight through the plastic & bolt it in at the outer four points of the amp, or, did you use the front edge &/or something else, like Jon did? I'm just wondering if the plastic would be strong enough to support the amp w/just four bolts, w/out cracking, etc, w/the car driving over bumps, etc... any input??? Any pics of your install? Ever had a prob getting to the ECU or anything, like jon mentioned? Still not sure how this is possible, but, will look into it, as the car is downstairs right now & I don't intend to do anything w/it till tommorrow night....
Thanks a lot,
09-25-2004, 08:23 AM
#33
Race Director
I have the door panels that hold the speakers under the grill, but it is such a tight fit. I am retrofitting them to an 86. I wonder if I need to do some extra cutting...
09-25-2004, 11:51 PM
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when you say "panels that hold the speakers under the grill" Are you referring to Turbo S panels- speakers being under the armrest? Either way, you shouldn't have to do any cutting- as far as I've seen, it appears that the metal behind the panel is the same- cut-outs same size, etc... shouldn't be a prob- the speakers under the armrest should be mounted in a plastic frame- if you have this, it IS a VERY close fit & works rather well....
09-26-2004, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by NZ951
Yes that is what I have, maybe it is just too close for what I am used to...
09-26-2004, 11:56 AM
#37
Hi all,
Just a quick note here to 968 owners. I have a 1994 968 with the 10 speaker option and it is substantially different in some important ways. I"ve also included more generic info for those who want to embark on an audio upgrade and learn more about the subject. There is also a wealth of information available on the net. www.crutchfield.com, www.partsexpress.com, www.carstereo.com etc... can all be helpful
1. The speaker components themselves are different than shown here for the 944 10 speaker option. In the front they are quite similar, but the rears are vastly different. I have pictures if you need them.
2. The amplification is different. The front speakers are powered by an external amp mounted under the front passenger seat. The amp is an Alpine. I think the stock Alpine model number is 3501 but that is an inference based on my research. That amp puts out about 18 watts per channel. The rear speakers actually have a mono amplifier and crossover mounted to the back of each woofer and the 'tweeter' is actually more of a mid/tweeter. This is an integrated unit, so there is no 'drop in' replacement for the speaker. You would need to add a new speaker and an amp or somehow reuse the existing amp.
3. The result of this type of amplification approach means that the head unit actually doesn't need amplification (watts). The output from the receiver / head unit is in the form of line level RCA outputs as opposed to speaker level amplification.
I know far more about audio than I do about cars. So, I lean on many of you for auto maintenance tips etc, but am happy to share what I know about audio. If you have a 968 in particular or questions about audio/speakers etc. in general I'm happy to share.
I just recently did some upgrades to my system. I"ll call it phase 1 of my audio upgrade. Here is what I did. In this phase I kept all of the stock speakers etc and just did some things to improved overall sound. Most of what I did is just generic 'rule of thumb' stuff and good for all installations. Later I'll be doing more complex upgrades.
1. Added a KLA Industries subwoofer in the rear passenger-side cubby. This is a small sealed box. It can't get REALLY low or loud, but it far surpasses what you can get from the stock stereo.
2. The woofer was purchased separately from www.partsexpress.com. It is an 8" Quatro.
3. Added a separate amplifier in the spare tire area to power the sub. Sub has a built in crossover and bass boost. I'm using both features with the amp crossed over at about 100 Hz.
4. Put Dynamat on the inside of door panels, under the carpet in the rear hatch, around rear wheel weels, back side of some other body panels, front lip of sunroof, etc. Supressing ambient (unwanted) noise by even a small amount (3 decibels) is the perceived equivalent of doubling your amplifier power in terms of perceved loudness. I'm not pitching Dynamat, but if you go that route, use the Extreme. It costs a lot more, but it is sticker and more pliable so it is easier to work with.
5. Replaced sunroof weatherstripping and replaced the rear hatch seal as well to cut down on noise.
6. Put 1 inch open cell foam inside the area behind the rear speakers and trailing toward the rear wheel well. This dampens reflections from the rear of the speaker as well as slightly dampening overall noise. Dampening reflections from the rear of the speaker is important. Failing to do so muddys the sound.
7. Sealed the area around the rear speakers with either caulk and foam. If a speaker is being called on to reproduce low frequencies then the type of enclosure matters a great deal (sealed vs ported etc.) In most car applications the best thing you can do is to make sure that there are no air gaps anywhere near the speakers and especially concentrate on those around the perimeter of the speaker. These air gaps allow out of phase bass to escape from the back of the speaker and cancel the sounds coming from the front resulting in a loss of bass.
8. Inserted FMOD crossovers in the signal path between reciever/head unit and outboard amplifiers. 100 Hz in rear and 200 Hz in back. Small or poorly mounted speakers can't produce bass well - so it is OK - in fact desirable - to filter out the low frequencies before those speakers see them. That is by and large what crossovers do anyway - filter out the frequencies you don't want a speaker to see. The FMOD's clean up the mid range and reduce the load on the amp as well since they are installed between preamp and amplifier. "Bass Blockers" use a different approach but accomplish much of the same thing
Things to remember.
1. Stock systems can be made to sound better by sealing the speakers, tightening everything down, dampening the areas behind the speakers and adding Dynamat or equivalent to dampen/reduce noise/rattles/vibrations.
2. Small speakers or speakers with little or no space behind them just can't reproduce low frequencies. Acknowledging that and removing the low frequencies before the speaker sees them is a good thing.
3. Subwoofers are almost a necessity if you really want low bass. Most pop music doesn't have a lot of low bass, but when it is added it is noticable. Enclosure type and size matter when matching speaker to enclosure.
4. Stock amplification will generally not be enough to power a subwoofer in a meaningful way.
5. Not all amplifiers and watts are created equal. Just because one system is rated at 40 watts and another is rated at 60 doesn't necessarily mean that the 60 watt amp will play louder.
6. This may be counter intuitive to some, but more speakers are blown (destroyed) by too LITTLE power than by too much. The reason for this is that as you turn up the volume you begin to tax the amplifier. When that happens the amplifier begins to 'clip' or distort. These clipped/distorted wave forms can't be processed by the speaker as you are asking the speaker to behave in an unnatural way. The speakes eventually break or you can destroy the crossover. You generally hear this in the form of a distorted sound as the amplifier goes into clipping. Higher power amps usually result in your ears giving out before the amps do.
If you really want to explore the area of speaker system design and building then I'd recomend a book called The Loudspeaker Design Cookbook. It covers lots of facets - mostly for the home - but all of the general information on speaker and crossover design can be adapted for the car.
Most companies that sell speakers don't actually manufacture them. They are typically manufactured by one of a dozen companies around the world (so in a lot of cases you are paying for the name...).
The truly adventuress can by these 'raw' speakers, buy or build suitable crossovers and have truly custom solutions. See
www.partsexpress.com and
www.madisound.com for more.
Happy Listening.
Phil
Just a quick note here to 968 owners. I have a 1994 968 with the 10 speaker option and it is substantially different in some important ways. I"ve also included more generic info for those who want to embark on an audio upgrade and learn more about the subject. There is also a wealth of information available on the net. www.crutchfield.com, www.partsexpress.com, www.carstereo.com etc... can all be helpful
1. The speaker components themselves are different than shown here for the 944 10 speaker option. In the front they are quite similar, but the rears are vastly different. I have pictures if you need them.
2. The amplification is different. The front speakers are powered by an external amp mounted under the front passenger seat. The amp is an Alpine. I think the stock Alpine model number is 3501 but that is an inference based on my research. That amp puts out about 18 watts per channel. The rear speakers actually have a mono amplifier and crossover mounted to the back of each woofer and the 'tweeter' is actually more of a mid/tweeter. This is an integrated unit, so there is no 'drop in' replacement for the speaker. You would need to add a new speaker and an amp or somehow reuse the existing amp.
3. The result of this type of amplification approach means that the head unit actually doesn't need amplification (watts). The output from the receiver / head unit is in the form of line level RCA outputs as opposed to speaker level amplification.
I know far more about audio than I do about cars. So, I lean on many of you for auto maintenance tips etc, but am happy to share what I know about audio. If you have a 968 in particular or questions about audio/speakers etc. in general I'm happy to share.
I just recently did some upgrades to my system. I"ll call it phase 1 of my audio upgrade. Here is what I did. In this phase I kept all of the stock speakers etc and just did some things to improved overall sound. Most of what I did is just generic 'rule of thumb' stuff and good for all installations. Later I'll be doing more complex upgrades.
1. Added a KLA Industries subwoofer in the rear passenger-side cubby. This is a small sealed box. It can't get REALLY low or loud, but it far surpasses what you can get from the stock stereo.
2. The woofer was purchased separately from www.partsexpress.com. It is an 8" Quatro.
3. Added a separate amplifier in the spare tire area to power the sub. Sub has a built in crossover and bass boost. I'm using both features with the amp crossed over at about 100 Hz.
4. Put Dynamat on the inside of door panels, under the carpet in the rear hatch, around rear wheel weels, back side of some other body panels, front lip of sunroof, etc. Supressing ambient (unwanted) noise by even a small amount (3 decibels) is the perceived equivalent of doubling your amplifier power in terms of perceved loudness. I'm not pitching Dynamat, but if you go that route, use the Extreme. It costs a lot more, but it is sticker and more pliable so it is easier to work with.
5. Replaced sunroof weatherstripping and replaced the rear hatch seal as well to cut down on noise.
6. Put 1 inch open cell foam inside the area behind the rear speakers and trailing toward the rear wheel well. This dampens reflections from the rear of the speaker as well as slightly dampening overall noise. Dampening reflections from the rear of the speaker is important. Failing to do so muddys the sound.
7. Sealed the area around the rear speakers with either caulk and foam. If a speaker is being called on to reproduce low frequencies then the type of enclosure matters a great deal (sealed vs ported etc.) In most car applications the best thing you can do is to make sure that there are no air gaps anywhere near the speakers and especially concentrate on those around the perimeter of the speaker. These air gaps allow out of phase bass to escape from the back of the speaker and cancel the sounds coming from the front resulting in a loss of bass.
8. Inserted FMOD crossovers in the signal path between reciever/head unit and outboard amplifiers. 100 Hz in rear and 200 Hz in back. Small or poorly mounted speakers can't produce bass well - so it is OK - in fact desirable - to filter out the low frequencies before those speakers see them. That is by and large what crossovers do anyway - filter out the frequencies you don't want a speaker to see. The FMOD's clean up the mid range and reduce the load on the amp as well since they are installed between preamp and amplifier. "Bass Blockers" use a different approach but accomplish much of the same thing
Things to remember.
1. Stock systems can be made to sound better by sealing the speakers, tightening everything down, dampening the areas behind the speakers and adding Dynamat or equivalent to dampen/reduce noise/rattles/vibrations.
2. Small speakers or speakers with little or no space behind them just can't reproduce low frequencies. Acknowledging that and removing the low frequencies before the speaker sees them is a good thing.
3. Subwoofers are almost a necessity if you really want low bass. Most pop music doesn't have a lot of low bass, but when it is added it is noticable. Enclosure type and size matter when matching speaker to enclosure.
4. Stock amplification will generally not be enough to power a subwoofer in a meaningful way.
5. Not all amplifiers and watts are created equal. Just because one system is rated at 40 watts and another is rated at 60 doesn't necessarily mean that the 60 watt amp will play louder.
6. This may be counter intuitive to some, but more speakers are blown (destroyed) by too LITTLE power than by too much. The reason for this is that as you turn up the volume you begin to tax the amplifier. When that happens the amplifier begins to 'clip' or distort. These clipped/distorted wave forms can't be processed by the speaker as you are asking the speaker to behave in an unnatural way. The speakes eventually break or you can destroy the crossover. You generally hear this in the form of a distorted sound as the amplifier goes into clipping. Higher power amps usually result in your ears giving out before the amps do.
If you really want to explore the area of speaker system design and building then I'd recomend a book called The Loudspeaker Design Cookbook. It covers lots of facets - mostly for the home - but all of the general information on speaker and crossover design can be adapted for the car.
Most companies that sell speakers don't actually manufacture them. They are typically manufactured by one of a dozen companies around the world (so in a lot of cases you are paying for the name...).
The truly adventuress can by these 'raw' speakers, buy or build suitable crossovers and have truly custom solutions. See
www.partsexpress.com and
www.madisound.com for more.
Happy Listening.
Phil
Last edited by phil0618; 09-26-2004 at 09:13 PM.
09-26-2004, 06:40 PM
#38
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Phil- thanks for all the info- wish I'd talked to you when I started MY project- I mounted 6x8 Infinity components under the armrests- tweeters in upper stock locations- I have 6.5 Kappa coaxes in rear- was trying to get as much depth as possible w/OUT subs- I wanted to get as much speaker as possible, since I was not using subs- unfortunately, I don't think I have enough enclosure under the armrests to allow the 6x8's to give full bass- so, I'm thinking a REALLY nice set of 5.25 seperates would have worked about as well & been a MUCH simpler install...
As for the 968- are you SURE all of that is factory? I have researched the hell out of the stereo's in these cars & have never heard quite what you're describing- I ALSO have a copy of PET files & have looked there & have never seen anything other than what the Turbo S had for the 968- it is the M490 system, &, while SOME part #'s were changed, they all apppear to be the EXACT same speaker- I've actually held some w/dif #'s in my hands & were DEFINATELY the EXACT same. This set-up is a 10-speaker system- it includes a 6.5" w/seperate tweeter in the rear & a 5.25" w/separate 3.25" speaker under the armrest & a separate tweeter up top in the front- the LATER 968's had the 3.25" MOVED, however- it was moved to the ORIGINAL 944 STOCK front 4x6 location- to the front of the door- the only real advantage to this, from what I can see, is better imaging- the 944 has weird speaker locations- the M490 is worse- the rear speaker is too far foward- right behind the driver/passenger's heads- the front speakers of M490 fires right into the side of the leg (despite this, it DOES do rather well, however)- the regular 944 front speaker location was better though- it moves the front speaker close to 1" further forward & apart from the rear speaker- the later 968 helps fix this SLIGHTLY, by moving the 3.25" forward, but, it is the same speaker as used in earlier M490's. As for the mono-amp in the rear 6.5" speaker- I would love to see a picture of that- do you have the stock speakers out of the car that you might be able to snap one & post it? I know the stock 6.5" is usually close to $100/ea from dealers- I don't have them in front of me, but, I DO remember there being a small box on the back of them- thought it was simply a X-over- is THIS what you are referring too? Maybe it's more than just a X-over, but, it's so small, i never thought that possible(?)- also, I know, there are no RCA's coming off the back of mine, but, am not sure at all about the stock deck, as the idiot PO had lost it & installed an Alpine tape deck by the time I bought the car (I had quite a mess to deal with actually...)- but. anything's possible when dealing w/a company like Porsche, so, it's possible there were some changes they did not list, but, I was just curious about this since I had never seen anything like it...
anyway, any input would be appreciated.....
As for the 968- are you SURE all of that is factory? I have researched the hell out of the stereo's in these cars & have never heard quite what you're describing- I ALSO have a copy of PET files & have looked there & have never seen anything other than what the Turbo S had for the 968- it is the M490 system, &, while SOME part #'s were changed, they all apppear to be the EXACT same speaker- I've actually held some w/dif #'s in my hands & were DEFINATELY the EXACT same. This set-up is a 10-speaker system- it includes a 6.5" w/seperate tweeter in the rear & a 5.25" w/separate 3.25" speaker under the armrest & a separate tweeter up top in the front- the LATER 968's had the 3.25" MOVED, however- it was moved to the ORIGINAL 944 STOCK front 4x6 location- to the front of the door- the only real advantage to this, from what I can see, is better imaging- the 944 has weird speaker locations- the M490 is worse- the rear speaker is too far foward- right behind the driver/passenger's heads- the front speakers of M490 fires right into the side of the leg (despite this, it DOES do rather well, however)- the regular 944 front speaker location was better though- it moves the front speaker close to 1" further forward & apart from the rear speaker- the later 968 helps fix this SLIGHTLY, by moving the 3.25" forward, but, it is the same speaker as used in earlier M490's. As for the mono-amp in the rear 6.5" speaker- I would love to see a picture of that- do you have the stock speakers out of the car that you might be able to snap one & post it? I know the stock 6.5" is usually close to $100/ea from dealers- I don't have them in front of me, but, I DO remember there being a small box on the back of them- thought it was simply a X-over- is THIS what you are referring too? Maybe it's more than just a X-over, but, it's so small, i never thought that possible(?)- also, I know, there are no RCA's coming off the back of mine, but, am not sure at all about the stock deck, as the idiot PO had lost it & installed an Alpine tape deck by the time I bought the car (I had quite a mess to deal with actually...)- but. anything's possible when dealing w/a company like Porsche, so, it's possible there were some changes they did not list, but, I was just curious about this since I had never seen anything like it...
anyway, any input would be appreciated.....
09-26-2004, 08:51 PM
#39
Hi Robby,
I've seen your posts numerous times and it is a pleasure to make your acqaintenance.
Yes, I'm pretty sure its all 'stock'. However, I will tell you that several items have model numbers labled 928 (the DIN connector leading from the cockpit to the passenger cubby for instance), the amps that are built into the rear speakers have 968 model numbers I recall correctly. I've included some pictures below in no particular order that show...
1. The rear speaker with amplifier attached. The label on the speaker says Nokia with a 968 model number as I recall.
2. The Alpine amp that I found mounted under the passenger seat. There were a couple of dedicated bolts there mounted to the chassis and a bracket that both look like they were intended to hold the amp. Amp is labled Porsche 02 but also has the Alpine name on it. Further research leads me to believe it was a Alpine 3501.
3. Pics of front doors showing Woofer, Midrange and crossover. Tweeter is not shown - it is mounted up high on door far forward near the window switches.
Note too the door panel clearly illustrates were the mid was located previously (see the little solid square next to the woofer). Now the mid is far forward and built into a factory 6"x4" mount that covers the original mounting area in the door where the 6x4's originall went.
I have a Becker head unit which is not stock, so its possible that numerous items were changed out to create the current configuration, but I dont' think so. Look at the wiring harness on the 6.5 that is power + ground + signal... clearly a factory implementation not something an aftermarket shop would do. Also, look at the pic that shows the alpine amp and then the amplifier attached to the rear speaker. You can see the parts configuration on the circuit board looks like half of the Alpine.
Anyway, it was far more sophisticated in a lot of ways than I expected. Like you, I had done some research, so when I started this project and found what I did, I felt like I was on an arheological dig.
Now that the KLA sub is in and all the sound deadening and seal replacement is done it really does sound pretty sweet. Better than I expected. Tweeters are a bit too bright but that cold be the product of rather low end amplification. I'm contemplating an Alpine 7995 (you can find them used on Ebay) which are supposed to sound pretty great and are CD/Tuner/Pre-amp only which would work fine.
I had heard that in late 1994 Porsche started making some changes to the 968. For instance the guy I bought the car from said that my seats were from another model (993?) and there were some other things that changed around that time too. I'm thinking that Porsche started making the upgrades in a way that made the audio units more consistent across model lines. However, I'm not an expert in this area.
I've been in contact with Walter Spector the person who put the 944 Stereo FAQ together and I've offered to add all my info that for future reference.
http://reality.sgiweb.org/wws/stereo_faq.html
In there he makes the following references
1993:
Improved standard speaker system (anyone know what this is?) <-----***
Blaupunkt London RDM-42 CD radio/cassette (M693, only with M490)
1994:
Blaupunkt Bremen RCM-43 plus code card (M334)
The M490 amplifier option is really two 2-channel amplifiers, one under each seat. <----***
I'm guessing that some of the upgrades to the stereo came a bit later in the model years but that few cars had the latest options and that is why we don't hear much about them.
Anyway, if I can help anyone out, just let me know. I've got other pics that I took during the install as well.
Cheers,
Phil
PS I know the issue comes up regarding the removal of the small window by the rear seats when the issue of rear speaker replacement is discussed. On my 968 this is a non issue. There is a little plastic trim ring on the inside which snaps out and then you simply remove the interior trim panel. The small mid/tweeter is still attached to the trim piece/grill so be careful as you pull it off and then remove the wires from the back of the speaker.
I've seen your posts numerous times and it is a pleasure to make your acqaintenance.
Yes, I'm pretty sure its all 'stock'. However, I will tell you that several items have model numbers labled 928 (the DIN connector leading from the cockpit to the passenger cubby for instance), the amps that are built into the rear speakers have 968 model numbers I recall correctly. I've included some pictures below in no particular order that show...
1. The rear speaker with amplifier attached. The label on the speaker says Nokia with a 968 model number as I recall.
2. The Alpine amp that I found mounted under the passenger seat. There were a couple of dedicated bolts there mounted to the chassis and a bracket that both look like they were intended to hold the amp. Amp is labled Porsche 02 but also has the Alpine name on it. Further research leads me to believe it was a Alpine 3501.
3. Pics of front doors showing Woofer, Midrange and crossover. Tweeter is not shown - it is mounted up high on door far forward near the window switches.
Note too the door panel clearly illustrates were the mid was located previously (see the little solid square next to the woofer). Now the mid is far forward and built into a factory 6"x4" mount that covers the original mounting area in the door where the 6x4's originall went.
I have a Becker head unit which is not stock, so its possible that numerous items were changed out to create the current configuration, but I dont' think so. Look at the wiring harness on the 6.5 that is power + ground + signal... clearly a factory implementation not something an aftermarket shop would do. Also, look at the pic that shows the alpine amp and then the amplifier attached to the rear speaker. You can see the parts configuration on the circuit board looks like half of the Alpine.
Anyway, it was far more sophisticated in a lot of ways than I expected. Like you, I had done some research, so when I started this project and found what I did, I felt like I was on an arheological dig.
Now that the KLA sub is in and all the sound deadening and seal replacement is done it really does sound pretty sweet. Better than I expected. Tweeters are a bit too bright but that cold be the product of rather low end amplification. I'm contemplating an Alpine 7995 (you can find them used on Ebay) which are supposed to sound pretty great and are CD/Tuner/Pre-amp only which would work fine.
I had heard that in late 1994 Porsche started making some changes to the 968. For instance the guy I bought the car from said that my seats were from another model (993?) and there were some other things that changed around that time too. I'm thinking that Porsche started making the upgrades in a way that made the audio units more consistent across model lines. However, I'm not an expert in this area.
I've been in contact with Walter Spector the person who put the 944 Stereo FAQ together and I've offered to add all my info that for future reference.
http://reality.sgiweb.org/wws/stereo_faq.html
In there he makes the following references
1993:
Improved standard speaker system (anyone know what this is?) <-----***
Blaupunkt London RDM-42 CD radio/cassette (M693, only with M490)
1994:
Blaupunkt Bremen RCM-43 plus code card (M334)
The M490 amplifier option is really two 2-channel amplifiers, one under each seat. <----***
I'm guessing that some of the upgrades to the stereo came a bit later in the model years but that few cars had the latest options and that is why we don't hear much about them.
Anyway, if I can help anyone out, just let me know. I've got other pics that I took during the install as well.
Cheers,
Phil
PS I know the issue comes up regarding the removal of the small window by the rear seats when the issue of rear speaker replacement is discussed. On my 968 this is a non issue. There is a little plastic trim ring on the inside which snaps out and then you simply remove the interior trim panel. The small mid/tweeter is still attached to the trim piece/grill so be careful as you pull it off and then remove the wires from the back of the speaker.
Last edited by phil0618; 11-26-2009 at 12:07 AM.
09-26-2004, 10:38 PM
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This is going to become "THE" thread for the 10 speaker system for future searches. A lot of fellas adding some nice information here...
09-26-2004, 10:41 PM
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Cory,
do you have the amps under the seats? I used the car a little today and forgot to look. It takes a while for one side to be as loud as the other, then it is louder then the other, then they are even.
If our 89s have the same amps as Phil0618 I may have to convince him to sell me his old ones. I am on a very very tight budget with this porsche. She who must be obeyed aka the minister of finance will not tolerate me doing to this garage queen what i did to the red one, especially since the work to the red one was done pre baby, and was a daily driver.
do you have the amps under the seats? I used the car a little today and forgot to look. It takes a while for one side to be as loud as the other, then it is louder then the other, then they are even.
If our 89s have the same amps as Phil0618 I may have to convince him to sell me his old ones. I am on a very very tight budget with this porsche. She who must be obeyed aka the minister of finance will not tolerate me doing to this garage queen what i did to the red one, especially since the work to the red one was done pre baby, and was a daily driver.
09-27-2004, 04:55 PM
#43
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Phil (& others...)
thanks a LOT for posting this stuff- especially the pics! I agree w/gobogie... lots of cool stuff here.... Phil- ".....archealogical dig" LOL!
You have no idea how many times I've felt that way w/my car... I mean- I really thought I had all the stereo stuff about figured out- evidently NOT- I have contacted so many people & I DO have a copy of the PET files- I'm going to have to load those up on my old laptop- can't use it w/XP, so, don't have it on this comp- PITFA! But, I'll HAVE to check it now- STILL wont mean your stuff is NOT stock, even if I DONT find it... Porsche did ALL KINDS of things...
As for dif's from what I expected, based on your pics- the 3.25" front speaker- I had said that the later 968 M490 stereo had the exact same 3.25" speaker mounted forward, out from under the armrest, in the forward mounting position... well... like you said- it's built into an oval 4x6 plate- it MIGHT still be the same 3.25", BUT, it does appear that the round speaker would be slightly large to fit in the open section of the plastic frame where the 3.25 originally went...
The rear speaker- appears to be of stock Porsche type, as it's outer mounting edge is sqaurish in shape, as are many 5.25's- just TRY & find another aftermarket 6.5" to match that shape! I ended up making some adapter plates out of wood to mount my 6.5" Kappa's there- not tough, but, I did spend some time, as I wanted to make sure it was WELL-SEALED all around.... did a good job in the end, as I feel I get more & better sound from the rears than the 6x8's up front.... I'm going to try snap a few pics tonight of what I did up FRONT to post here if possible.... Maybe you'll have some input on what I can do to make it better(?)- anyway, I can see what you're saying about the factory plug, so, it HAS to be stock....
That little plate you're showing connected to the rear speaker- how does that secure itself? I mean, it doesn't hang loose like that does it? IS it bolted in by itself, or, is it bolted to the speaker somehow? I'll have to snap some pics of the early M490 6.5's to show, but, they're at least slightly dif- that will be later, since they're at my paren'ts house, but, from what I remember (99% sure), they have normal speaker wire conectors & NOT a plug like your's show from your side shot....
The back of the plastic mounting frame for the fronts- the 5.25" appears to be the same as mine from front (probably is), BUT, from back, it appears there is some foam(?) covering it- I THINK I had that too, but, mine just came off w/the panel, in the hole where the magnet recessed- maybe your's stuck to the back of the speaker(?). The 3-way X-over on back of the plastic mounting frame appears to be the same- it looks like there are less wires- possibly b/c early M490's 3.25 was attatched to the plastic frame- Porsche elimated the 3.25 & 3-way X-over ENTIRELY from many of the 951's, S2's, & 968's for SOME reason- when I bought my 968 panels I was w/out the 3.25- my PO had screwed MY set-up so bad & had lost the stock front speakers entirely- so, I was going to just hook up the new speakers that came w/my 968 panels & be done, but, it sounded bad. That 3.25" & 3-way X-over make a BIG dif.... I've only heard it once, but, was impressed enough to start trying to collect all the pieces to make mine full.... did not end up that way.... too much trouble in the end to find one of these cars that was not hacked to pieces.... Is that 3-way X-over (IF 3-way) connected to the front round/oval speaker from behind the door panel somehow & then it all comes into the plug you can see from the front side?
As for the amps- I'm lost there- those don't look like the ones I've seen- they must have changed them a few times, but, I don't know much about ANY of them to be honest.... the only ones I've seen pics of (& have saved SOMEWHERE) are the EQ ones- not sure they REALLY added power, but, they came w/the Reno & Charleston decks in Turbo S & some S2's- they were mounted under the deck itself instead of that little pocket- the 968 has a CLOCK there in PART of the pocket & a thermometer in the clock part that is wired to the mirrors somehow- I considered trying to find a way to hook a thermometer up when I did my 968 mirror & handle conversions, but, had bitten off more than I should have in the first place- the handles were hardly worth it- should have pulled the stock 944 handles off, painted them body color & reinstalled, but.... too late- I DO think the 968 handles LOOK better.... Anyway, I have read a thousand times of the amps that are supposed to have been connected under the seats in Turbo S, etc- not sure about them- never seen one- I DO think Porsche tried to do too much there- they would have had a MUCH easier time trying to make the door/panel area slightly deeper, for bigger front speakers, &, added ONE NICE 4-ch amp for the whole system & been done w/it IMO, w/more traditional wiring, instead of the nightmare they created.... Kind of like the power SR.... Hell, they could have just made the armrest ~1" DEEPER & MAYBE .5" higher- would have given plenty of room for a good 6.5" speaker- still would have fired into the leg a bit, but, it obviously works, despite how it seems.... NOT to mention they COULD have added a real handle to close the door with from the inside.... carved a notch so everyone wouldn't use the oh-sh** handle & slam my FU**ING DOORS!!! I guess they have to go to Japan to figure THAT one out though....
I've been in touch w/Walt a few times- his site gave me a LOT of my early info on these systems.... I don't think he's quite a into it as much anymore, based on several e-mails, but, I guess that's the way it goes.. eventually... you kind of quit trying to learn... Everything you've saod about Porsche's changes is correct though, from what I know- not sure about making the stereo lines MORE consistent, but, possible- I HAVE been told, by more than one person, that 968's got later model seats in some models, &, I HAD heard that were from 993's- do you have any pics of that? I'll PM you my e-mail address & if you have time, you can send me some more pics, if you don't mind- I've collected a LOT of pics from stereos & intereiors in these cars- also, you ARE lucky to have the 968 when it comes to rear speaker removal, as the 1/4 window IS mounted differently & is much easier to work w/when doing speaker stuff- is the rear TWEETER mounted in the plastic speaker GRILL like in the Turbo S?
anyway, I'll try my best to get some pics tonight of what I've done, for future reference here- I need to reomve the driver panel & find out why I have a slight rattle- just been putting it all off as I'm sick of screwing w/it, but, need to soon anyway.... thanks again for all the input Phil- I really appreciate you posting all of that- just goes to show you can never know everything.... when it comes to Porsche anyway....
thanks a LOT for posting this stuff- especially the pics! I agree w/gobogie... lots of cool stuff here.... Phil- ".....archealogical dig" LOL!
You have no idea how many times I've felt that way w/my car... I mean- I really thought I had all the stereo stuff about figured out- evidently NOT- I have contacted so many people & I DO have a copy of the PET files- I'm going to have to load those up on my old laptop- can't use it w/XP, so, don't have it on this comp- PITFA! But, I'll HAVE to check it now- STILL wont mean your stuff is NOT stock, even if I DONT find it... Porsche did ALL KINDS of things... As for dif's from what I expected, based on your pics- the 3.25" front speaker- I had said that the later 968 M490 stereo had the exact same 3.25" speaker mounted forward, out from under the armrest, in the forward mounting position... well... like you said- it's built into an oval 4x6 plate- it MIGHT still be the same 3.25", BUT, it does appear that the round speaker would be slightly large to fit in the open section of the plastic frame where the 3.25 originally went...
The rear speaker- appears to be of stock Porsche type, as it's outer mounting edge is sqaurish in shape, as are many 5.25's- just TRY & find another aftermarket 6.5" to match that shape! I ended up making some adapter plates out of wood to mount my 6.5" Kappa's there- not tough, but, I did spend some time, as I wanted to make sure it was WELL-SEALED all around.... did a good job in the end, as I feel I get more & better sound from the rears than the 6x8's up front.... I'm going to try snap a few pics tonight of what I did up FRONT to post here if possible.... Maybe you'll have some input on what I can do to make it better(?)- anyway, I can see what you're saying about the factory plug, so, it HAS to be stock....
That little plate you're showing connected to the rear speaker- how does that secure itself? I mean, it doesn't hang loose like that does it? IS it bolted in by itself, or, is it bolted to the speaker somehow? I'll have to snap some pics of the early M490 6.5's to show, but, they're at least slightly dif- that will be later, since they're at my paren'ts house, but, from what I remember (99% sure), they have normal speaker wire conectors & NOT a plug like your's show from your side shot....
The back of the plastic mounting frame for the fronts- the 5.25" appears to be the same as mine from front (probably is), BUT, from back, it appears there is some foam(?) covering it- I THINK I had that too, but, mine just came off w/the panel, in the hole where the magnet recessed- maybe your's stuck to the back of the speaker(?). The 3-way X-over on back of the plastic mounting frame appears to be the same- it looks like there are less wires- possibly b/c early M490's 3.25 was attatched to the plastic frame- Porsche elimated the 3.25 & 3-way X-over ENTIRELY from many of the 951's, S2's, & 968's for SOME reason- when I bought my 968 panels I was w/out the 3.25- my PO had screwed MY set-up so bad & had lost the stock front speakers entirely- so, I was going to just hook up the new speakers that came w/my 968 panels & be done, but, it sounded bad. That 3.25" & 3-way X-over make a BIG dif.... I've only heard it once, but, was impressed enough to start trying to collect all the pieces to make mine full.... did not end up that way.... too much trouble in the end to find one of these cars that was not hacked to pieces.... Is that 3-way X-over (IF 3-way) connected to the front round/oval speaker from behind the door panel somehow & then it all comes into the plug you can see from the front side?
As for the amps- I'm lost there- those don't look like the ones I've seen- they must have changed them a few times, but, I don't know much about ANY of them to be honest.... the only ones I've seen pics of (& have saved SOMEWHERE) are the EQ ones- not sure they REALLY added power, but, they came w/the Reno & Charleston decks in Turbo S & some S2's- they were mounted under the deck itself instead of that little pocket- the 968 has a CLOCK there in PART of the pocket & a thermometer in the clock part that is wired to the mirrors somehow- I considered trying to find a way to hook a thermometer up when I did my 968 mirror & handle conversions, but, had bitten off more than I should have in the first place- the handles were hardly worth it- should have pulled the stock 944 handles off, painted them body color & reinstalled, but.... too late- I DO think the 968 handles LOOK better.... Anyway, I have read a thousand times of the amps that are supposed to have been connected under the seats in Turbo S, etc- not sure about them- never seen one- I DO think Porsche tried to do too much there- they would have had a MUCH easier time trying to make the door/panel area slightly deeper, for bigger front speakers, &, added ONE NICE 4-ch amp for the whole system & been done w/it IMO, w/more traditional wiring, instead of the nightmare they created.... Kind of like the power SR.... Hell, they could have just made the armrest ~1" DEEPER & MAYBE .5" higher- would have given plenty of room for a good 6.5" speaker- still would have fired into the leg a bit, but, it obviously works, despite how it seems.... NOT to mention they COULD have added a real handle to close the door with from the inside.... carved a notch so everyone wouldn't use the oh-sh** handle & slam my FU**ING DOORS!!! I guess they have to go to Japan to figure THAT one out though....
I've been in touch w/Walt a few times- his site gave me a LOT of my early info on these systems.... I don't think he's quite a into it as much anymore, based on several e-mails, but, I guess that's the way it goes.. eventually... you kind of quit trying to learn... Everything you've saod about Porsche's changes is correct though, from what I know- not sure about making the stereo lines MORE consistent, but, possible- I HAVE been told, by more than one person, that 968's got later model seats in some models, &, I HAD heard that were from 993's- do you have any pics of that? I'll PM you my e-mail address & if you have time, you can send me some more pics, if you don't mind- I've collected a LOT of pics from stereos & intereiors in these cars- also, you ARE lucky to have the 968 when it comes to rear speaker removal, as the 1/4 window IS mounted differently & is much easier to work w/when doing speaker stuff- is the rear TWEETER mounted in the plastic speaker GRILL like in the Turbo S?
anyway, I'll try my best to get some pics tonight of what I've done, for future reference here- I need to reomve the driver panel & find out why I have a slight rattle- just been putting it all off as I'm sick of screwing w/it, but, need to soon anyway.... thanks again for all the input Phil- I really appreciate you posting all of that- just goes to show you can never know everything.... when it comes to Porsche anyway....
Last edited by Robby; 09-27-2004 at 05:15 PM.
09-27-2004, 05:57 PM
#44
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ok.... how do we send private messages to people now? I'm not liking this new format very much.... is it hidden or something? Was going to PM you my e-mail addy Phil, but....
09-27-2004, 06:44 PM
#45
Hi Robby,
Good to meet a fellow road going audiophile. Since your post was long and the questions/comments peppered throughout, I"ve added some comments/responses in-line with your original post. Look for the ***'s
Phil (& others...)
thanks a LOT for posting this stuff- especially the pics! I agree w/gobogie... lots of cool stuff here.... Phil- ".....archealogical dig" LOL! You have no idea how many times I've felt that way w/my car... I mean- I really thought I had all the stereo stuff about figured out- evidently NOT- I have contacted so many people & I DO have a copy of the PET files- I'm going to have to load those up on my old laptop- can't use it w/XP, so, don't have it on this comp- PITFA! But, I'll HAVE to check it now- STILL wont mean your stuff is NOT stock, even if I DONT find it... Porsche did ALL KINDS of things...
*** I just had a fresh site to do my dig on. I'm sure they are all interesting in their own way. But yeah I did feel like I was covering some new ground.
As for dif's from what I expected, based on your pics- the 3.25" front speaker- I had said that the later 968 M490 stereo had the exact same 3.25" speaker mounted forward, out from under the armrest, in the forward mounting position... well... like you said- it's built into an oval 4x6 plate- it MIGHT still be the same 3.25", BUT, it does appear that the round speaker would be slightly large to fit in the open section of the plastic frame where the 3.25 originally went...
*** I thoought this 4x6 mounting was cool. I really felt like they had talked to someone "who got" audio and they went the extra mile to make sure things fit right while exploiting some of the current mounting positions etc. It makes a true replacement near impossible but you could keep the speaker location even if you went after market. One other thing that is cool is that the speaker grill actaully screws onto the area just around the edge of the speaker. I'd never seen that before in a factory rig.
The rear speaker- appears to be of stock Porsche type, as it's outer mounting edge is sqaurish in shape, as are many 5.25's- just TRY & find another aftermarket 6.5" to match that shape! I ended up making some adapter plates out of wood to mount my 6.5" Kappa's there- not tough, but, I did spend some time, as I wanted to make sure it was WELL-SEALED all around.... did a good job in the end, as I feel I get more & better sound from the rears than the 6x8's up front.... I'm going to try snap a few pics tonight of what I did up FRONT to post here if possible.... Maybe you'll have some input on what I can do to make it better(?)- anyway, I can see what you're saying about the factory plug, so, it HAS to be stock....
That little plate you're showing connected to the rear speaker- how does that secure itself? I mean, it doesn't hang loose like that does it? IS it bolted in by itself, or, is it bolted to the speaker somehow? I'll have to snap some pics of the early M490 6.5's to show, but, they're at least slightly dif- that will be later, since they're at my paren'ts house, but, from what I remember (99% sure), they have normal speaker wire conectors & NOT a plug like your's show from your side shot....
*** If you look at the shot that shows the head on shot of the rear plug and speaker you will note two posts coming straight down near the edge of teh speaker and terminating at the metal basket that is holding the amp/crossover. There are four of those and they all line up with the 4 holes that you see in the pic where the amp is removed from the rear of the speaker.
The back of the plastic mounting frame for the fronts- the 5.25" appears to be the same as mine from front (probably is), BUT, from back, it appears there is some foam(?) covering it- I THINK I had that too, but, mine just came off w/the panel, in the hole where the magnet recessed- maybe your's stuck to the back of the speaker(?). The 3-way X-over on back of the plastic mounting frame appears to be the same- it looks like there are less wires- possibly b/c early M490's 3.25 was attatched to the plastic frame- Porsche elimated the 3.25 & 3-way X-over ENTIRELY from many of the 951's, S2's, & 968's for SOME reason- when I bought my 968 panels I was w/out the 3.25- my PO had screwed MY set-up so bad & had lost the stock front speakers entirely- so, I was going to just hook up the new speakers that came w/my 968 panels & be done, but, it sounded bad. That 3.25" & 3-way X-over make a BIG dif.... I've only heard it once, but, was impressed enough to start trying to collect all the pieces to make mine full.... did not end up that way.... too much trouble in the end to find one of these cars that was not hacked to pieces.... Is that 3-way X-over (IF 3-way) connected to the front round/oval speaker from behind the door panel somehow & then it all comes into the plug you can see from the front side?
*** Here is what I can surmise... The sound all flows into the crossover and then back out to the three drivers woofer/mid/tweeter. The leads for the tweeter and mid are in the door cavity somewhere. I don't know what the values are for the crossover points, but you could probably build or buy a simple small crossover for that spot even if you couldn't buy one. Pretty darn small tho.
As for the amps- I'm lost there- those don't look like the ones I've seen- they must have changed them a few times, but, I don't know much about ANY of them to be honest.... the only ones I've seen pics of (& have saved SOMEWHERE) are the EQ ones- not sure they REALLY added power, but, they came w/the Reno & Charleston decks in Turbo S & some S2's- they were mounted under the deck itself instead of that little pocket- the 968 has a CLOCK there in PART of the pocket & a thermometer in the clock part that is wired to the mirrors somehow- I considered trying to find a way to hook a thermometer up when I did my 968 mirror & handle conversions, but, had bitten off more than I should have in the first place- the handles were hardly worth it- should have pulled the stock 944 handles off, painted them body color & reinstalled, but.... too late- I DO think the 968 handles LOOK better.... Anyway, I have read a thousand times of the amps that are supposed to have been connected under the seats in Turbo S, etc- not sure about them- never seen one- I DO think Porsche tried to do too much there- they would have had a MUCH easier time trying to make the door/panel area slightly deeper, for bigger front speakers, &, added ONE NICE 4-ch amp for the whole system & been done w/it IMO, w/more traditional wiring, instead of the nightmare they created.... Kind of like the power SR.... Hell, they could have just made the armrest ~1" DEEPER & MAYBE .5" higher- would have given plenty of room for a good 6.5" speaker- still would have fired into the leg a bit, but, it obviously works, despite how it seems.... NOT to mention they COULD have added a real handle to close the door with from the inside.... carved a notch so everyone wouldn't use the oh-sh** handle & slam my FU**ING DOORS!!! I guess they have to go to Japan to figure THAT one out though....
*** I think I detected just a hint of ranting... I agree that more could have been done, but I think my version actaully evovled to a pretty good place. No doubt the accountants had a big hand in any modifications and retooling for something like a door when you are only shipping a few thousand units would have been a pretty big deal. Again, I think a big thing in any project like this is to recognize the limitations of the factory set up and then to decide if you are going to keep it (with some modifications/augmentation) or to just toss what they did and start fresh e.g. mounting speakers in a custom kick panel or something. I like stealth installs so I try to at least maintain the factory mounting positions if not the stock speakers and grills. However, I'm sure I'm going to get an itch somewhere along the line BUT, I think I'm going to goose up teh amplification first as I'm curious as to just how how good the current factory set up can sound.
I've been in touch w/Walt a few times- his site gave me a LOT of my early info on these systems.... I don't think he's quite a into it as much anymore, based on several e-mails, but, I guess that's the way it goes.. eventually... you kind of quit trying to learn... Everything you've saod about Porsche's changes is correct though, from what I know- not sure about making the stereo lines MORE consistent, but, possible- I HAVE been told, by more than one person, that 968's got later model seats in some models, &, I HAD heard that were from 993's- do you have any pics of that? I'll PM you my e-mail address & if you have time, you can send me some more pics, if you don't mind- I've collected a LOT of pics from stereos & intereiors in these cars- also, you ARE lucky to have the 968 when it comes to rear speaker removal, as the 1/4 window IS mounted differently & is much easier to work w/when doing speaker stuff- is the rear TWEETER mounted in the plastic speaker GRILL like in the Turbo S?
*** I'm must making Walt's acqaintance but he seems like an easy going guy. The tweeter is mounted on the back of the grill. But its more of a small midrange than a true tweeter. Has an open back and it covers most of the frequency range.
anyway, I'll try my best to get some pics tonight of what I've done, for future reference here- I need to reomve the driver panel & find out why I have a slight rattle- just been putting it all off as I'm sick of screwing w/it, but, need to soon anyway.... thanks again for all the input Phil- I really appreciate you posting all of that- just goes to show you can never know everything.... when it comes to Porsche anyway....
*** I'm enjoying this as much as you are and look forward to more dialogue on the subject.
*** For private messaging look in the top right of this page and you'll find WELCOME "your name" then read the fine print below that.
Cheers,
Phil
Good to meet a fellow road going audiophile. Since your post was long and the questions/comments peppered throughout, I"ve added some comments/responses in-line with your original post. Look for the ***'s
Phil (& others...)
thanks a LOT for posting this stuff- especially the pics! I agree w/gobogie... lots of cool stuff here.... Phil- ".....archealogical dig" LOL! You have no idea how many times I've felt that way w/my car... I mean- I really thought I had all the stereo stuff about figured out- evidently NOT- I have contacted so many people & I DO have a copy of the PET files- I'm going to have to load those up on my old laptop- can't use it w/XP, so, don't have it on this comp- PITFA! But, I'll HAVE to check it now- STILL wont mean your stuff is NOT stock, even if I DONT find it... Porsche did ALL KINDS of things...
*** I just had a fresh site to do my dig on. I'm sure they are all interesting in their own way. But yeah I did feel like I was covering some new ground.
As for dif's from what I expected, based on your pics- the 3.25" front speaker- I had said that the later 968 M490 stereo had the exact same 3.25" speaker mounted forward, out from under the armrest, in the forward mounting position... well... like you said- it's built into an oval 4x6 plate- it MIGHT still be the same 3.25", BUT, it does appear that the round speaker would be slightly large to fit in the open section of the plastic frame where the 3.25 originally went...
*** I thoought this 4x6 mounting was cool. I really felt like they had talked to someone "who got" audio and they went the extra mile to make sure things fit right while exploiting some of the current mounting positions etc. It makes a true replacement near impossible but you could keep the speaker location even if you went after market. One other thing that is cool is that the speaker grill actaully screws onto the area just around the edge of the speaker. I'd never seen that before in a factory rig.
The rear speaker- appears to be of stock Porsche type, as it's outer mounting edge is sqaurish in shape, as are many 5.25's- just TRY & find another aftermarket 6.5" to match that shape! I ended up making some adapter plates out of wood to mount my 6.5" Kappa's there- not tough, but, I did spend some time, as I wanted to make sure it was WELL-SEALED all around.... did a good job in the end, as I feel I get more & better sound from the rears than the 6x8's up front.... I'm going to try snap a few pics tonight of what I did up FRONT to post here if possible.... Maybe you'll have some input on what I can do to make it better(?)- anyway, I can see what you're saying about the factory plug, so, it HAS to be stock....
That little plate you're showing connected to the rear speaker- how does that secure itself? I mean, it doesn't hang loose like that does it? IS it bolted in by itself, or, is it bolted to the speaker somehow? I'll have to snap some pics of the early M490 6.5's to show, but, they're at least slightly dif- that will be later, since they're at my paren'ts house, but, from what I remember (99% sure), they have normal speaker wire conectors & NOT a plug like your's show from your side shot....
*** If you look at the shot that shows the head on shot of the rear plug and speaker you will note two posts coming straight down near the edge of teh speaker and terminating at the metal basket that is holding the amp/crossover. There are four of those and they all line up with the 4 holes that you see in the pic where the amp is removed from the rear of the speaker.
The back of the plastic mounting frame for the fronts- the 5.25" appears to be the same as mine from front (probably is), BUT, from back, it appears there is some foam(?) covering it- I THINK I had that too, but, mine just came off w/the panel, in the hole where the magnet recessed- maybe your's stuck to the back of the speaker(?). The 3-way X-over on back of the plastic mounting frame appears to be the same- it looks like there are less wires- possibly b/c early M490's 3.25 was attatched to the plastic frame- Porsche elimated the 3.25 & 3-way X-over ENTIRELY from many of the 951's, S2's, & 968's for SOME reason- when I bought my 968 panels I was w/out the 3.25- my PO had screwed MY set-up so bad & had lost the stock front speakers entirely- so, I was going to just hook up the new speakers that came w/my 968 panels & be done, but, it sounded bad. That 3.25" & 3-way X-over make a BIG dif.... I've only heard it once, but, was impressed enough to start trying to collect all the pieces to make mine full.... did not end up that way.... too much trouble in the end to find one of these cars that was not hacked to pieces.... Is that 3-way X-over (IF 3-way) connected to the front round/oval speaker from behind the door panel somehow & then it all comes into the plug you can see from the front side?
*** Here is what I can surmise... The sound all flows into the crossover and then back out to the three drivers woofer/mid/tweeter. The leads for the tweeter and mid are in the door cavity somewhere. I don't know what the values are for the crossover points, but you could probably build or buy a simple small crossover for that spot even if you couldn't buy one. Pretty darn small tho.
As for the amps- I'm lost there- those don't look like the ones I've seen- they must have changed them a few times, but, I don't know much about ANY of them to be honest.... the only ones I've seen pics of (& have saved SOMEWHERE) are the EQ ones- not sure they REALLY added power, but, they came w/the Reno & Charleston decks in Turbo S & some S2's- they were mounted under the deck itself instead of that little pocket- the 968 has a CLOCK there in PART of the pocket & a thermometer in the clock part that is wired to the mirrors somehow- I considered trying to find a way to hook a thermometer up when I did my 968 mirror & handle conversions, but, had bitten off more than I should have in the first place- the handles were hardly worth it- should have pulled the stock 944 handles off, painted them body color & reinstalled, but.... too late- I DO think the 968 handles LOOK better.... Anyway, I have read a thousand times of the amps that are supposed to have been connected under the seats in Turbo S, etc- not sure about them- never seen one- I DO think Porsche tried to do too much there- they would have had a MUCH easier time trying to make the door/panel area slightly deeper, for bigger front speakers, &, added ONE NICE 4-ch amp for the whole system & been done w/it IMO, w/more traditional wiring, instead of the nightmare they created.... Kind of like the power SR.... Hell, they could have just made the armrest ~1" DEEPER & MAYBE .5" higher- would have given plenty of room for a good 6.5" speaker- still would have fired into the leg a bit, but, it obviously works, despite how it seems.... NOT to mention they COULD have added a real handle to close the door with from the inside.... carved a notch so everyone wouldn't use the oh-sh** handle & slam my FU**ING DOORS!!! I guess they have to go to Japan to figure THAT one out though....
*** I think I detected just a hint of ranting... I agree that more could have been done, but I think my version actaully evovled to a pretty good place. No doubt the accountants had a big hand in any modifications and retooling for something like a door when you are only shipping a few thousand units would have been a pretty big deal. Again, I think a big thing in any project like this is to recognize the limitations of the factory set up and then to decide if you are going to keep it (with some modifications/augmentation) or to just toss what they did and start fresh e.g. mounting speakers in a custom kick panel or something. I like stealth installs so I try to at least maintain the factory mounting positions if not the stock speakers and grills. However, I'm sure I'm going to get an itch somewhere along the line BUT, I think I'm going to goose up teh amplification first as I'm curious as to just how how good the current factory set up can sound.
I've been in touch w/Walt a few times- his site gave me a LOT of my early info on these systems.... I don't think he's quite a into it as much anymore, based on several e-mails, but, I guess that's the way it goes.. eventually... you kind of quit trying to learn... Everything you've saod about Porsche's changes is correct though, from what I know- not sure about making the stereo lines MORE consistent, but, possible- I HAVE been told, by more than one person, that 968's got later model seats in some models, &, I HAD heard that were from 993's- do you have any pics of that? I'll PM you my e-mail address & if you have time, you can send me some more pics, if you don't mind- I've collected a LOT of pics from stereos & intereiors in these cars- also, you ARE lucky to have the 968 when it comes to rear speaker removal, as the 1/4 window IS mounted differently & is much easier to work w/when doing speaker stuff- is the rear TWEETER mounted in the plastic speaker GRILL like in the Turbo S?
*** I'm must making Walt's acqaintance but he seems like an easy going guy. The tweeter is mounted on the back of the grill. But its more of a small midrange than a true tweeter. Has an open back and it covers most of the frequency range.
anyway, I'll try my best to get some pics tonight of what I've done, for future reference here- I need to reomve the driver panel & find out why I have a slight rattle- just been putting it all off as I'm sick of screwing w/it, but, need to soon anyway.... thanks again for all the input Phil- I really appreciate you posting all of that- just goes to show you can never know everything.... when it comes to Porsche anyway....
*** I'm enjoying this as much as you are and look forward to more dialogue on the subject.
*** For private messaging look in the top right of this page and you'll find WELCOME "your name" then read the fine print below that.
Cheers,
Phil