MelissaInNJ

Hello 944 Owners! My name is Melissa, I'm 31 with a good job, and I live in NJ. I have owned several cars from a mid 80's Buick Regal to a 95 Camaro to a 2001 Rav4 to a 2003 Baja, and a few others in there. Basically from beater to sports coupe to utility. I am trying to decide to trade in my basically new and maintenance free 2003 Subaru Baja with 4300 miles (read non-gamble "safe" car) for a late 80's early 90's 944 NA (read gamble..at least to my husband). The Porsche would have about 30-40K and would be in tip top condition as per the very reputable seller (see below link for what condition the car will be in when I get it):

http://www.aicauto.com/buying.html

I am willing to pay for that car being in tip top condition and expect to pay just under $15K for the 944 NA. Having a car pre-serviced before I get it is worth the money to me. I expect then to continue required maintenance and timing belt changes at every 30K miles and continued checks on the water pump. I am aware that surpises will crop up.

My husband, while appreciative of Porsche's, thinks it is not a wise choice to make, as he thinks that the maintenance costs of the car will surprise me. So I am coming to you, owner's of 944's, for some advice on this very subject. I whole-heartedly want to take the plunge, but promised my husband I would thoroughly research maintenance costs before hand. he will support me whatever my choice, but doesn't want a "told you so" situation if we can avoid it.

Since the car will be in such good condition when I purchase it, I expect the car to be pretty worry free for at least the first year I own it (though I know with a 15 year old car there can be surprises). I am going to budget $1200 a year for required maintenance. Excluding things that can go wrong, what can I expect money wise for a car in this condition for regular maintenance? I am not a wrench head (I can check fluids, tighten clamps (if I am told which ones to tighten), and change a tire)...but a timing belt change...I would definitely need to pay someone to do that one. I researched that the 944's are pretty straight forward mechanically and with some guidance I am sure I could learn to do the simpler things on my own.

So, question out there, barring unexpected expenses, what would a car in this condition being driven as an everyday car for about 15K-17K miles a year in all weather conditions most likely cost me for regular maintenance?

Your help convincing my husband is DEFINITELY appreciated.

Sincerely, Melissa in NJ

Tom R.

for over 10 and under 15 i will sell you the 1989 944S2 with 54k miles i just bought two days ago

Like the link you posted says, it was hand picked by me and all the other BS he put in his site. a clean car speaks for itself.

https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...hreadid=135643 here is a link with a few pictures


if you shell out 15k for any 944 the car better do more then just drive!

here are two recent auctions to give you an idea on value

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...RK%3AMEWA%3AIT


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...RK%3AMEWA%3AIT

the guy with the black one cant break the 12k barrier. there is also a black S2 on cars.com with 79k and a asking price of 12k try 150 miles from you, it is in commack ny.

also, the last NA was an 89. after that the S2 became the only 944.

esanmiguel

Finding a late 80's early 90's 944 with that low of a mileage is rare. Even if you find a higher mileage 944 (75K-100K miles), they hold up pretty well if it was maintained properly. Don't be scared of the higher mileage on these cars. I have an 87 non-turbo that I bought last year that has 143K miles on it but it was properly maintained by the Previous owner and the car looks and runs great.

I dont suggest a NA car as the engine is somewhat underpowered. Get the S2 model or the bigger displacement engine at 2.7 liters vs. 2.5. Sounds lke you have the money and knowledge to maintain these cars. Good luck!

Dave

NA usually refers to an 8v car that was produced from '83-'89 so you won't find an early '90s example other than the S2 which was produced '89-'91. Your $15K budget certainly allows for an very nice example of an S2, even in north Jersey where the going rates are often much higher than average. For the most part it sounds like you've done your homework but I'm a little concerned about your maintanence budget on a car that will see substantial use. $12-1500 will cover the maintanence for a car that is driven 15k/year but it doesn't leave anything for the unexpected problems and in a 15 year old car unexpected problems are to be expected.

We have a lot of garden state Rennlisters, depending on where you are there is probably someone nearby to give you a hand if you want, including convincing your husband. Don't forget the PPI, again I'm sure a local 'lister can give you advice on the shops in your area.

Luis de Prat

MelissaInNJ:

I have owned 944s for 10 years, and suggest a different approach to buying one of these cars.

1. Buy from an enthusiast, not a used car dealer. If the car looks good in and out and the seller can provide the appropriate maintenance records for the miles, you have some really nice cars out there with higher miles than you would ordinarily consider, that can still provide many miles of driving pleasure and will cost substantially less up front.

2. Budget for the unexpected. You are correct in doing this. These cars do take more maintenance than your average Subaru, but OTOH they were built to last a very long time and most of the cars out there do not reflect their age.

3. Take your time and have fun searching for the right car. There are many nice cars if you look in the right places. Rennlist is one of them.

Welcome to Rennlist!

Dave

OK, now that I've worked my way through that link and found the $14.9k '89 NA automatic, I can only say that that dealer is on crack! I assume that's the car you are considering?
It looks like a very nice example of what it is, but it really isn't worth close to what they're asking and is not the correct car to be used as a daily driver or for more than a limited number of miles per year. From it's condition and price I have to think that the car's value is in the rarity of it's condition and it's low miles. the dealer is hoping to find the right collector/concours enthusiest, who will pay a huge premium for it. If used for 12k+/year commuting it would loose almost all of it's value in just a couple years.
The sad fact is that automatic transmission 944s are worth much less than a manual transmission car since there is almost no market for them and in 2-3 years when it's coming up on 100k miles it won't be worth any more than a similar car with 140K on it. You might as well find a clean car that has twice the miles on it for less than half the price. Don't be scared off bu higher milage cars, with proper maintenence these cars can go for well over 200K and there are a number of them out there with 300k or even 400k on them. there's no reason to spend top dollar (or in this case more than top dollar) for a car that will just rack up a bunch of miles.

AndyK

The prices on ALL those cars are WAY high. Get a car from an individual (like Dave said), and don't pay-up for low miles. Even low-mile cars will need belts, water pump, clutch, shocks...etc. That means spending to get the car, PLUS spending to fix the same things a high-mile car will need.

My mechanic is selling a burgundy automatic NA--I think he wanted $6k for it? Tons of new stuff (he's a mechanic), but an Auto 944 has 3 speeds...and to me, would be uselessly slow!!

Take your time, check Autotrader, and find a car that has been pampered by an enthusiast! Tom just found one in NJ!

Good luck!

Marc Gelefsky

The Porsche would have about 30-40K and would be in tip top condition as per the very reputable seller (see below link for what condition the car will be in when I get it):


What makes these guys whose prices are quite high a "Very reputable seller"
As stated, you would be much better off purchasing from an enthusiast than a dealer.
That said, Welcome to Rennlist!

MelissaInNJ

Wow, I have learned a lot already. Thank you.

I left some info out. I am sorry. The automatic on the site I provided is not the one I would buy. I would never buy automatic anything, let alone a Porsche. No lazy left feet here! But otherwise, that model is attractive to me. I will need financing for the car whether it is 14K or less than that. I do not have 14K sitting around (though wish I did!). So buying out of the paper or from individuals is pretty much out. I also will need my existing Baja traded in and get enough for it to pay off the loan. So that has to be figured in. I also want to work within the Philadelphia area (and driveable distance surrounding) mainly for convenience. That leaves me with reputable dealers/used car places pretty much. I also don't mind if I put lots of miles on teh car, and in several years time not gettingmuch for it. Heck I drove my Camaro for many many moons putting serious miles on it. I loved that car and that was what was important to me...not getting huge bucks for it when it was time to move on.

Two, thank you for letting me know $1200 a year is a low figure. What would be a more reasonable figure to budget?

Thanks already!
Melissa in NJ

Luis de Prat

Better to scrounge up a $5K personal loan than to "finance" some dealer outfit's 100% markup, IMHO.

Z-man

Ok, my $0.42:
Forget AICauto: their prices are way too high. I remember their website from when I was searching for my 944 4 years ago. Even then, their prices were relatively higher than what I saw elsewhere.

For $15,500 you can buy a 968 in decent condition from Powertech (Rockaway, NJ). 93,300 miles, black on black, 6-speed:

Click HERE for their website.
My only affiliation with Powertech is that they service my track-driven 944S2. But tell them the Zoltan sent ya! (Maybe I'll get a break on my next service!! )

Also check: www.wantadpress.com for 944's. right now, in their listings, there's a 1983 944 for $4975.00 (a little high), an '87 924S for $4200 (decent price), and a 1988 944 Turbo (no price given). The nice thing about the want ad press is that they are local (NJ/NY metro area).

The going rate for a decent 944 with less than 100k mileage is around $5000. For a 951 (944 Turbo) or a 944S2 (16-valve 3-liter non-turbo), the price is around $8k to $10k.

Remember, a 15 year old car with 100,000 miles on the clock means that the car was driven less than 7,000 miles a year. Buying a 944 with low mileage (say, around 30k) means that it sat for some time during it's life. Car's don't sit well: rubber dries out, gaskets and bushings crack...etc. A 944 with 100k miles on it should give you many years of happiness, provided you keep up with the regular maintenance.

Good luck, and welcome to Rennlist!
-Z.

Ken D

Ok, here's my .02:

For the kind of money you are looking to spend, an extra 5 grand will get you into used Boxster territory. Much newer and 'modern' model, excellent performance, and top-down fun in the summer.

Do you own your Subaru, or lease it? How "upside down" will you be when you attempt to move it? I would be surprised to find a dealer that will take it on trade-in and cover the remaining loan balance. Check the various dealer pricing guides for trade-in values on your car, then subtract X percentage (as they'll always lowball). That amount will probably be less than the loan value.

My honest opinion is that I would never give up a brand-new, waranteed vehicle that I am taking a depreciation hit on for a daily driver 15-year old sports car which will undoubtedly require unplanned maintenance (out of pocket expense now), and for which I will also need to take out a loan.

But, YMMV, so good luck!

Dave

To find a car in good condition, one that won't become a money pit, it's important to get a car with a documented service history. It's unusual to find this at a dealer but I guess it's posible. I'd walk away from anything that I had to finance if these records aren't included and up to date as without them you can expect to put a few thousand dollars into the car before you drive it home.
Maintenence costs are hard to pin down since the collective experience of the group[ on this board is all over the map. There are a number of variables, the most important is the condition of the car and how well it was taken care of in the past (this explains my comment about service records). Milege is unimportant by comparison, in fact in many cases a car with fewer miles is more likely to need work since many parts disintergrate when not exercised a bit (seals, bearings, calipers etc).
To try and get an idea I'll list a few of the common maintenence items and the costs involved. to make it easier (for me anyway) I'll use a period of 60,000 miles, this can be devided over 3-4 years to get an annual cost at the mileage you've mentioned.
Belts, rollers, waterpump etc; As you are aware the belts and rollers are replaced every 30k/mi., the waterpump is usually changed with every other set of belts so fir 60,000 miles you have a belt change and a belt change with the pump. figure $2000 total/ per 60,000 miles.
The belts are retensioned at 1500 miles and again at 15,000 miles at a couple hundred per tensioning, twice per belt times two sets of belts equals just under $1000 per 60k miles (I told you 60k miles made my life easier).
Oil changes; These cars thrive when given proper care so most of us are pretty good about sticking with a 3000 mile oil change interval and many of us spring for a good synthetic oil. Since these cars hold over 6 qts, even Jiffylube charges extra. My mechanic hits me for $90 to change the oil and the local oil change place will do it for $75 but they don't stock the filter so I bring my own. These figures are for Mobil 1 and the filter is ~45 if you do a little internet shopping. We almost uniformly swear by the factory filters, the auto parts store ones aren't very good (yes, even the name brands). You can change the oil yourself if you want but take a look at where Porsche put the filter, it's a PITA compared to most cars. 7 qts + filter equals $40+ if you do it yourself. 20 oil changes per 60k miles is $900-1800.
Shocks/struts: you will probably go through a set of shocks in the first 60k miles, the popular replacement is the Koni sport (yellow) because it is a good shock/strut that's only a couple bucks more than the most basic units. Figure ~$600 for a set of 4, the rears are easy to install but the fronts you'll probably want to have installed at a shop, you'll have a wheel alignment done at the same time. $250-400 for labor.
Brakes: Pads and rotors are pretty cheap for these cars if you just want street pads, $1000 will keep you going for 60k miles.
Clutch: Big variable, a low mileage car may still have the original and the rubber centers are known to dry out and cause failure while there's still plenty of friction material left. If you don't have service records to prove that a "spring centered" clutch hass been installed, you can safely assume you will be putting one in soon. There are few cars where clutch replacement is a bigger PITA, figure $1500. Of course, the spring centered ones eventualy wear out to so once the car has one make sure you put aside $500-750 per 60k miles towards replacement.
Tires; 944's deserve decent tires and the appropriate tires dont last very long. Figure AT LEAST $500/set and 3-6 sets per 60K miles, $2000-3000.

Without getting into every last detail were at $9k per 60k miles, I haven't included maintenence items like A/C recharges or even plugs and wires at this point, let alone the suprises like a leaking power steering rack, ball joints or a wiper motor that quits on you. I'm not trying to discourage you, there great cars and well worth the trouble but if you're not prepared for it , the odds and ends will ruin the experience for you in short order.
At 15-17K miles/year, I'd think you'll end up around $2500-3500 per year. You can cut that down a bit by doing a lot of your own work but a couple suprises can easily blow the budget for the year. Did I mention that records are important?

AndyK

Check out this financing company. I used them twice, without a hitch! They send you a check you use to start your car loan. You can buy from an individual, or dealer. Very cool.

Capital One Finance (formerly Peoplefirst)

Rich Sandor

THERE IS NOTHING MORE EXPENSIVE THAN A CHEAP 944!!!!!

Spend the extra $$$ and buy a car that has records and was owned by an enthusiast!!