Millermatic

Weird one for you...

I just replaced my timing and balance belts (after mixing up my pulleys and the belt getting damaged from wandering - I’ve got a recent thread on that).

So... I turned the engine over twice with a wrench to check the tension and alignments. All looked good. Put everything back together and try starting. Battery has drained down. Get my backup jump pack and hook it up.

Car catches and dies after about two seconds. And then just cranks.

I think I smelled something like a blown fuse... but I may be imagining things on this car at this point. I pull the DME relay (A Focus 9 solid state) and throw in a spare. Nothing. Just cranks.

Here’s the weird part... I put the Focus 9 DME back in... and the door chime goes “on.” I pull it out and stick in the other one and it stops. Neither one starts the car, mind you... but the one I had been using quite successfully until two weeks ago (last time I started it before the belt change) now makes the door chime go off. I should add... the door was closed.

So... I’ll run through other fuses, and check for spark and fuel flow after that, I suppose... but anyone have any Ideas what’s up with the chime? Is there some sort of “you put in a bad relay” warning that uses the door chime that I’ve never heard of?

My oil pressure also didn’t jump up when I cranked it (I’ve always had solid pressure)... but one mystery at a time.

As always... thanks for any suggestions...

curtisr

I know that this isn't helpful but, be glad you don't own an early 928. Fix one electrical gremlin and discover something else electrical isn't working as a result.

Millermatic

Moral support is helpful, too...

walfreyydo

The door chime has its own relay slot - make sure the dme relay is in the correct location.

For the no start condition, check Clarks garage engine troubleshhoting section and follow the step by step procedures there. Highly unlikely the F9Tech relay failed (but its possible, especially the early versions). First step is the verify spark and fuel, which will then lead you down further tests-all described in detail on clarks.

If you still think its the relay you can make a bypass jumper to verify, again, this is on clarks garage. Highly recommend bookmarking and reading the entire shop manual section

Millermatic

I realize they are separate. I haven't actually _touched_ the door chime relay (ever). It just goes off (makes noise) when I plug one of my two DME relays in now (slot is correct). It didn't do that before yesterday. And the car doesn't start. They may not be related... just weird.

I'm now hoping it's something as simple as the fuel pump fuse (34?) - which I forgot to check that last night. I'll check when I get home. Not that that explains the chiming.

If it's not that... I'll start with the Clark's "Engine turns but doesn't fire" list.

951Dreams

This doesn't help you, but might be in the same vein... https://rennlist.com/forums/924-931-...ime-relay.html

This was something I discovered about the solid state relay. I also think I get some weird door dinging sometimes. Sometimes it acts like the key is still in it when I open the door. But that could be my ignition switch.

Millermatic

Thanks! That's interesting.

I still haven't gotten the car started again. I did jump the DME last night. The fuel pressure and leak down are fine. I also double-checked the distributor, re-charged the battery, and checked the fuel pump fuse. Which was also fine. I'll check the spark tonight.

I suspect the chime is just a weird coincidence and unrelated to the starting... but it's really weird. Like you mentioned in the linked thread... my key was also in the ignition in the "off" position. And the door was closed.

951Dreams

I'm trying to think what it could be that doing the belts would have caused. If these were not interference engines I'd worry about the timing, but I'd think if it was that far off, you'd be having piston and valve collision.

One other thing I'd think about is that maybe one of your connectors either didn't make good contact when plugged back in, or the wires broke or shorted out inside the wire/connector. Many of my wires and their insulation are fragile. I've had a few turn to dust.

Millermatic

The whole "what did changing the belts do" question is weighing heavily on my mind. I changed them because I had a vibration (balance belt off a bit) and discovered the timing belt had wandered (and gotten damaged) "while I was in there." It's not the first time I've done the belts. Although... maybe (hopefully) it's the first time I've done them _correctly_. I can't think of anything.

I was worried about the timing... but I rotated the engine a couple of times before putting it back together and I think I nailed it. On the balance shafts, too. Knock on wood. And like you said... It's an interference engine. If I screwed it up... I would think turning it over with the starter would have made some really bad sounds.

I'll check the spark tonight. And dig out my "spare" spare DME relay if the spark checks out. I've been going through connections...

And again... the engine very briefly caught the first time I tried to start it. And now just cranks.

Zirconocene

Just a WAG, but given that there's a chime issue that popped up, the concurrent issues always make me think of a grounding issue. So with that said, and given how the batch firing works for these engines, maybe it's worth some calories to take a look at the grounds on the block and the bellhousing and see if they've come loose. Perhaps if the BB vibration was serious enough, it backed out one of the bolts.

I don't have the wiring diagram in front of me, but it might be worth tracing the door chime circuit and seeing where those things go.

Good luck, no matter what.

Cheers

walfreyydo

Based on your description, and the fact you rotated the engine by hand before starting it (and the timing marks still lined up) makes me think you are fine there.

When you jumped the DME relay did the pump kick on? It should run continuously with the relay jumpered (as per clarks). If it does not, I would investigate why the pump isn't running (wiring issue from fuse panel or bad pump). You can also try starting the car with the relay jumpered. You should not have to use a spare relay to run this test-jumpering the relay removes that issue from the possibilities so leave it jumpered until you get the car running, then swap in your spare relay to confirm whether it is good or bad.

If still no luck, I would go ahead and verify you have spark. If spark checks ok and the plug wires are in the correct order, then I think its time to look at your fuel pressure and follow the steps under that Engine Troubleshooting page for "Testing for Fuel"

Testing for fuel

1. Connect a fuel pressure gauge to the end of the fuel rail.
2. Attempt to start the vehicle while checking the fuel pressure gauge.
3. If the fuel pressure rises on the gauge indicating the fuel pump has started, compare the maximum fuel pressure reading to the specifications in FUEL-01.
4. If there is no increase in fuel pressure, and you suspect that that the fuel pump is not starting, refer to FUEL-16 for fuel pump troubleshooting.
5. If your fuel pressure is low, or increases very slowly during cranking, refer to FUEL-16 for troubleshooting other fuel related problems

Note: youll need an M16 adapter to connect the fuel pressure gauge to the rail. Knowing the pressure is helpful to diagnose a bad FPR or other possible obstruction (clogged filter or tank screen)

Testing for spark:

1. The first step in testing for lack of spark is to verify that a no spark condition actually exists. A simple spark tester available at most auto parts stores is very handy here. I recommend removing the fuel pump fuse to keep the fuel pump from running during spark testing.
2. Disconnect one of the plug wires and connect the spark tester in series with the spark plug. Crank the engine and look for spark. You'll see the spark pulsing inside the tester as the engine turns over.
3. If there is no spark at the spark plug, disconnect the main lead from the ignition coil to the distributor cap and connect a spark tester in series with the coil wire. Crank the vehicle and check the tester for spark to the distributor.
4. If you get good spark at the main lead to the distributor and no spark at the spark plug, the distributor cap and/or rotor is bad and should be replaced. If there is no spark at the distributor main lead, proceed with ignition troubleshooting using IGN-04, Ignition System Troubleshooting.

Millermatic

That’s an interesting thought. It was a fairly bad vibration…. I’ll add that to the list.

Millermatic

Thanks, Walfreyydo.

I checked the fuel pressure and flow last night. I’m good there. Pump ran continuously when jumpered.

I like the idea of trying to start it jumpered.

Millermatic

So... I jumpered 30, 87 and 87b per Clark's. Fuel pump ran. I could hear the injectors. And the engine just cranked. No catch.

I tried it twice. The second time the engine cranked and then stopped. Would this be from vapor pressure (lock?) making the engine too hard for the starter to turn? I'm hoping that's not really bad?

So... on to the spark. (Now I'm paranoid... do I need to wait for the fuel to evaporate? Should I pull the plugs?)

I'm also not seeing any oil pressure. The only thing I can think of is I "lost my prime?"

Thanks as always...

orig944

Hydrolocked with too much fuel in cylinders, perhaps. Pull the plugs but don't crank as fuel will shoot everywhere. Also risk of sparks from ignition (if not disabled) starting a giant fireball. You might be able to suck gas out of the spark plug hole with a bit of tubing and something to suck with, like a syringe or turkey baster. Otherwise, wait for evaporation to occur.