Engine rebuilds are expensive!
02-10-2004, 08:28 PM
#16
Burning Brakes
I'm in the middle of my winter rebuild project also. Engine's out, obvious stuff has been dealt with but just curious about a couple things: are you guys removing and resealing the balance shaft covers or changing the BS bearings? I've had no problems with them leaking but "since I'm in there" should I take 'em off and reseal to prevent that future leak? Does the oil pump need replacement (with 150K miles)? Did you guys go out and buy/borrow micrometers and all of that measuring stuff to assess cylinder tolerances, crank condition, etc or can you just haul the block into an engine shop to have those things formally evaluated?
I've been trying to piece together all of the rebuild info that I can find from the archives and from Haynes but if there's a definitive info source beyond these I'd appreciate the reference. I know that once it's all back together I'll find out about something else I should have done but overlooked. Any advice much appreciated
I've been trying to piece together all of the rebuild info that I can find from the archives and from Haynes but if there's a definitive info source beyond these I'd appreciate the reference. I know that once it's all back together I'll find out about something else I should have done but overlooked. Any advice much appreciated
02-10-2004, 08:43 PM
#17
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Mike,
The tools to measure the block accurately are quite expensive, probably not worth the purchase as a one time use.
Good thread to read that has a lot of the info you're looking for...
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...hlight=rebuild
As for the balance shafts...yeap...might as well.
I brought my engine block to a machine shop to have it hot tanked (cleaned), cylinder walls honed and head studs removed. I'll have them cross-drill the crank as well.
Perry,
::worship::
The tools to measure the block accurately are quite expensive, probably not worth the purchase as a one time use.
Good thread to read that has a lot of the info you're looking for...
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...hlight=rebuild
As for the balance shafts...yeap...might as well.
I brought my engine block to a machine shop to have it hot tanked (cleaned), cylinder walls honed and head studs removed. I'll have them cross-drill the crank as well.
Perry,
::worship::
02-10-2004, 09:24 PM
#18
Burning Brakes
Thanks Adrial, thats very helpful. I'm in basically the same place as you were with high mileage engine ( that still runs great) and a bad oil pan gasket.( I already know you're an expert with those.) I'm gonna adorn her with a Vitesse Stage 2 so why not pull the engine and rebuild.
Could you give me an idea what the machine shop charged for those various services, as I was thinking of doing the same - hot tanking, measuring tolerances and pulling studs. Did you have to go with larger rings after the honing? Thanks again for the help
Could you give me an idea what the machine shop charged for those various services, as I was thinking of doing the same - hot tanking, measuring tolerances and pulling studs. Did you have to go with larger rings after the honing? Thanks again for the help
02-10-2004, 09:32 PM
#20
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Honing is only a treatment process, stock size rings are used. It prepares the bores for new rings.
Hot tanking, tolerances (he actually checked everything out while I was there...nice guy), honing and pulling the studs was about $300 from the shop I used. He said he wouldn't bother checking the balance shafts but would if I brought them to him. You want to bring the pistons when you go to get tolerances checked...along with the rods and wrist pins.
I'm not sure I'm an expert with oil pan gaskets...only had one leak. I'd say over1g is the expert!
Something I learned recently is that the rod bolts are apparently supposed to be one time use...so I'll be replacing those along with the head studs (this will be the 3rd torquing if I were to reuse them).
your welcome
--adrial
Hot tanking, tolerances (he actually checked everything out while I was there...nice guy), honing and pulling the studs was about $300 from the shop I used. He said he wouldn't bother checking the balance shafts but would if I brought them to him. You want to bring the pistons when you go to get tolerances checked...along with the rods and wrist pins.
I'm not sure I'm an expert with oil pan gaskets...only had one leak. I'd say over1g is the expert!
Something I learned recently is that the rod bolts are apparently supposed to be one time use...so I'll be replacing those along with the head studs (this will be the 3rd torquing if I were to reuse them).
your welcome
--adrial
02-10-2004, 09:37 PM
#21
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Luis,
The first owner tracked the car, I knew that when I bought it. What I didn't (and still dont) know is how much she tracked it...I have her name and number from records, I may give her a call out of curiosity. The second owner had the car for a year from ~63k to 67k miles, he installed autothority chips with a jetted banjo bolt that resulted in 20psi+ in 4th. I discovered the boost level after I installed a boost gauge...a few months after I purchased the car.
At that point, I pulled the chips, drove around stock for a month or 2 and then installed Steve R chips with an AFPR and fuel pressure rail gauge. Thats the way the car was until the headgasket blew on the track. I was running ~16psi of boost with the Steve R chips. I never did get it on the dyno to check a/f's....but the exhaust valves looked OK when I pulled the head, so it wasn't too lean if at all.
When I pulled the head I found that the head had already been pulled for a head gasket. Now I've found that the exhaust valves have probably been replaced as well because they are fine, while the intake valves are in need of replacement. (Exhaust valves usually wear first)
The first owner tracked the car, I knew that when I bought it. What I didn't (and still dont) know is how much she tracked it...I have her name and number from records, I may give her a call out of curiosity. The second owner had the car for a year from ~63k to 67k miles, he installed autothority chips with a jetted banjo bolt that resulted in 20psi+ in 4th. I discovered the boost level after I installed a boost gauge...a few months after I purchased the car.
At that point, I pulled the chips, drove around stock for a month or 2 and then installed Steve R chips with an AFPR and fuel pressure rail gauge. Thats the way the car was until the headgasket blew on the track. I was running ~16psi of boost with the Steve R chips. I never did get it on the dyno to check a/f's....but the exhaust valves looked OK when I pulled the head, so it wasn't too lean if at all.
When I pulled the head I found that the head had already been pulled for a head gasket. Now I've found that the exhaust valves have probably been replaced as well because they are fine, while the intake valves are in need of replacement. (Exhaust valves usually wear first)
02-10-2004, 09:42 PM
#22
Rennlist Member
That's quite a war horse! 
It looks like you're on your way to bringing it back to where it should be. I've been following your progress. Good luck with everything.
It looks like you're on your way to bringing it back to where it should be. I've been following your progress. Good luck with everything.
02-10-2004, 09:45 PM
#23
Racer
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In additional to Adrial's info:
a crappy aftermarket head gasket was used. 3 out of 4 rings on the gasket looked like this
The HG fibers appeared to have dissolved in several locations:
http://yarinwww.freemansden.com:81/p...s/IMG_4503.JPG
Check out the bottom of the gasket. You'll see a few tiny holes.
a crappy aftermarket head gasket was used. 3 out of 4 rings on the gasket looked like this
The HG fibers appeared to have dissolved in several locations:
http://yarinwww.freemansden.com:81/p...s/IMG_4503.JPG
Check out the bottom of the gasket. You'll see a few tiny holes.
02-10-2004, 09:46 PM
#24
Burning Brakes
So I should pull the head and flywheel/clutch components to relieve some weight and then take the block with the crank and girdle in place for accurate measurements rather than disassembling everything first? I've got 3 cycles on my studs also so they're getting changed as well. Was the shop able to double nut them off? Jason at Paragon told me the rod nuts should be changed, didnt mention the bolts.
Where are you at in the rebuild process?
Where are you at in the rebuild process?
02-10-2004, 09:58 PM
#25
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
The rod bolts I've heard conflicting stories...so I'm still on the edge, but leaning towards replacing the bolts to be safe.
As far as leaving the crank and girdle in place for bore measurements...I'm not sure its necesary. My machinist had a point. He machines the bores with the girdle out...so that would mean that if you measured fresh bores with everything torqued down, if that really does make much of a difference...that your measurements would show it to be out of round by a slight amount.
The head studs are a PITA according to 2 machine shops I've talked to. The one I'm using said he has a stud puller, but usually ends up using a huge pipe wrench on em...hehehe. That along with lots of heat.
Right now the block is at the machine shop and I am gathering parts. I just found out I needed 3 pistons and 4 intake valves...
Luis,
Apparently, yes, quite the war horse. I didnt know that when I bought it though.
I certaintly didnt know that I'd be putting the car on the track. It should be running nicely once the engine is back together. Hopefully the engine will stay together for quite some time.
Good luck with your 944's...hopefully I'll be posting in 2 months at a max that my car is back together and running great.
As far as leaving the crank and girdle in place for bore measurements...I'm not sure its necesary. My machinist had a point. He machines the bores with the girdle out...so that would mean that if you measured fresh bores with everything torqued down, if that really does make much of a difference...that your measurements would show it to be out of round by a slight amount.
The head studs are a PITA according to 2 machine shops I've talked to. The one I'm using said he has a stud puller, but usually ends up using a huge pipe wrench on em...hehehe. That along with lots of heat.
Right now the block is at the machine shop and I am gathering parts. I just found out I needed 3 pistons and 4 intake valves...
Luis,
Apparently, yes, quite the war horse. I didnt know that when I bought it though.
I certaintly didnt know that I'd be putting the car on the track. It should be running nicely once the engine is back together. Hopefully the engine will stay together for quite some time. Good luck with your 944's...hopefully I'll be posting in 2 months at a max that my car is back together and running great.
02-10-2004, 10:20 PM
#26
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Adrial -
I would do the rod bolts. Just like head studs, there is a tensile limit on the threads. With repeated torquings of stock hardware, you have the chance of the threads stretching and not allowing proper torque. Concidering the bearing issues we already have, I did not want to take any chances. $200 is worth saving $2000.
I went with ARP on the rod bolts, Raceware on all other hardware. The bolts need to be pressed in, so it's another shop fee. ($50 is what I paid)
For the balance shafts, replace the bearings and re-seal. Again, it's worth the extra $40 and an hours work to avoid Murphy's law.
I would do the rod bolts. Just like head studs, there is a tensile limit on the threads. With repeated torquings of stock hardware, you have the chance of the threads stretching and not allowing proper torque. Concidering the bearing issues we already have, I did not want to take any chances. $200 is worth saving $2000.
I went with ARP on the rod bolts, Raceware on all other hardware. The bolts need to be pressed in, so it's another shop fee. ($50 is what I paid)
For the balance shafts, replace the bearings and re-seal. Again, it's worth the extra $40 and an hours work to avoid Murphy's law.
02-18-2004, 06:57 PM
#28
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Just an update for everybody...
Today I ordered intake valves, total seal rings, main bearing kit, ARP head sutds, ARP rod bolts, crankcase gasket set, cylinder head gasket set, performance developments/cometic headgasket, balance belt, timing belt, power steering pump belt, coolant resevoir... total ~$1290 + shipping
Already ordered (some already received): SMT6 from Vitesse, rebuild of fuel injectors, pistons, AC delete bracket
Still to order: MAF sensor and wideband O2.
Everything is still at the machine shop, awaiting the valves and pistons.
BTW, the reason the list doesn't include rollers or waterpump is that they were just replaced ~5k miles ago...I'm thinking about replacing the rollers anyway, we'll see.
Anybody have any thoughts on the crank girdle studs? They go unmentioned for the most part.
Today I ordered intake valves, total seal rings, main bearing kit, ARP head sutds, ARP rod bolts, crankcase gasket set, cylinder head gasket set, performance developments/cometic headgasket, balance belt, timing belt, power steering pump belt, coolant resevoir... total ~$1290 + shipping
Already ordered (some already received): SMT6 from Vitesse, rebuild of fuel injectors, pistons, AC delete bracket
Still to order: MAF sensor and wideband O2.
Everything is still at the machine shop, awaiting the valves and pistons.
BTW, the reason the list doesn't include rollers or waterpump is that they were just replaced ~5k miles ago...I'm thinking about replacing the rollers anyway, we'll see.
Anybody have any thoughts on the crank girdle studs? They go unmentioned for the most part.
02-18-2004, 07:20 PM
#29
Race Director
Whoa, that would cost next to the nothing on my Conquest...but as we already discussed, my car is a pile of ****
All 8 valves are 40$ for me
Full engine gasket kit= $51.66
etc...
Happy dont have to rebuild my N/A engine...
All 8 valves are 40$ for me
Full engine gasket kit= $51.66
etc...
Happy dont have to rebuild my N/A engine...
02-18-2004, 08:05 PM
#30
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Adrial...i'm with ya man. You and I have been rebuilding our motors at the same time and my original estimate of 1-1.5k ended up being 2.5k by time I was done. That included a lot of upgrades...but still...not cheap.
The head studs aren't that bad. I pulled em myself with a cheapo stud puller and a MAP torch. First try torquing on each one...some may be loose...about half of mine were easy to remove. The stubborn ones require soeone to torch the outside of the cavity until the threadlock smokes...then its just a hard push on the bar and they rotate out.
If I have even one oil leak by time I'm done....i'll cry.
The head studs aren't that bad. I pulled em myself with a cheapo stud puller and a MAP torch. First try torquing on each one...some may be loose...about half of mine were easy to remove. The stubborn ones require soeone to torch the outside of the cavity until the threadlock smokes...then its just a hard push on the bar and they rotate out.
If I have even one oil leak by time I'm done....i'll cry.