Dyno - 447 RWHP on CIS
05-09-2006, 01:04 PM
#106
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I have been in contact with Micke Svens (the owner) several times. He is a top notch race mechanic very famous in his part of the world. He uses Secan intercoolers for his applications which are the most efficient intercoolers out there..(Cost around $20k) and the same that the GT2 EVO cars used.
I don't know about these HP and torque claims, they must be at very high boost levels, but his engines are no doubt well built.
I don't know about these HP and torque claims, they must be at very high boost levels, but his engines are no doubt well built.
05-09-2006, 03:42 PM
#107
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If they are running high boost levels isn't that even more impressive that they are getting reliability with CIS at over 600bhp, those secan intercoolers must be awesome!! And should be for $20k! What's the next best intercooler down from a secan?
It's a shame they don't have detailed pictures of the engine build like they do with the others, I guess he doesn't want to show his secrets, is the intercooler on the 600bhp 930 a secan?
It's a shame they don't have detailed pictures of the engine build like they do with the others, I guess he doesn't want to show his secrets, is the intercooler on the 600bhp 930 a secan?
05-09-2006, 05:00 PM
#108
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The intercooler alone cost $20K, can that be right? In the picture from the website the intercooler looks like a Kokeln with painted ends? Black does transfer heat better than other colors, and the factory had black intercoolers ...maybe we should all be painting them black? I notice the cylinders are black as well....hhhmmmmm.
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05-09-2006, 05:38 PM
#109
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To be honest I had not checked the picture of the 930 CIS car. The intercooler does not look like a Secan, however it could be as ytou cannot tell from the picture what the core design is. If you check out his 993GT2 EVO race and street projects, they both have Secan, the street application is thicker than the other. He says he uses Heggeman coolers, it is a bit confusing since i know for a fact that the picture shows a Secan, they both are very expensive however.
The CIS that he uses has little to do with the stock CIS that we know, it is a very highy prepared unit closer to the 934RSR (?) racing models, that are quite larger. He likes to use Autronic for his high HP applications.
I am not very sure about those claimed HP numbers though.
The CIS that he uses has little to do with the stock CIS that we know, it is a very highy prepared unit closer to the 934RSR (?) racing models, that are quite larger. He likes to use Autronic for his high HP applications.
I am not very sure about those claimed HP numbers though.
05-09-2006, 07:44 PM
#110
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The thing I am amazed at is he state that he uses stock components? Is this just the CIS or the whole motor? How can that be possible?
Quote"The engine is based almost only on stock parts that have been carefully prepared and matched by us. Some of the parts that we replace with non stock units are the intercooler, turbo, muffler, camshaft and the clutch."
Quote"The engine is based almost only on stock parts that have been carefully prepared and matched by us. Some of the parts that we replace with non stock units are the intercooler, turbo, muffler, camshaft and the clutch."
05-09-2006, 09:05 PM
#111
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It depends on how well the original components were made. For instance, I know that my Toyota 3sgte engine the stock pistons have been found to be good to 500hp. You can go with aftermarket JEs and such but you don't really have to. Also the MAF is good to around that point as well before it really becomes a restriction. I'd imagine the same thing is true with the Porsche Carrera MAF.
You do get some extra HP by switching these items out but it's certainly not necessary. Don't forget the 930 engine was originally designed as a Homologation exercise. That means that the basic design and materials used were originally done with a high HP endurance race engine in mind.
You do get some extra HP by switching these items out but it's certainly not necessary. Don't forget the 930 engine was originally designed as a Homologation exercise. That means that the basic design and materials used were originally done with a high HP endurance race engine in mind.
05-09-2006, 09:09 PM
#112
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Originally Posted by JBL930
Thanks for the info Nathan, have you had your heads, intake manifold and injector blocks modified at all, or are you leaving those stock? That was one of the first things to get done on mine along with headers, turbo, IC etc. I've been advised to get an EBC, and I would like something to monitor the AFR as well, I’ve read a few threads that go on about knock sensors, apparently it's knock that does the damage? I suppose there are no end of safety devices you can install, I’ll have a word with my specialist and see what he says, it's 490 at the crank now and they are happy with it so I’m happy too, I read so many different opinions it gets confusing, maybe I should go down from a 1.0bar to a 0.8 or 0.9 spring? But then I’d miss the grunt, like you say, "you have to pay to play", hope you get yours back together soon, cheers 
At least with the parts I have bought so far, the engine can be put back to stock if needed (I hope I never have too). Putting back heads to stock would be tricky
You cannot get a knock sensor to work on the 930 engine, including the 965 3.3 engine, not sure about the the 3.6 965.
Do you have stock rodbolts ?
Would be nice to get it back together soon, the weather is good again. I drove my 3.2 carrera on sunday in the rain, was a little scary as I haven't drove it since december.
05-10-2006, 12:07 AM
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Originally Posted by SoFast
The thing I am amazed at is he state that he uses stock components? Is this just the CIS or the whole motor? How can that be possible?
Quote"The engine is based almost only on stock parts that have been carefully prepared and matched by us. Some of the parts that we replace with non stock units are the intercooler, turbo, muffler, camshaft and the clutch."
Quote"The engine is based almost only on stock parts that have been carefully prepared and matched by us. Some of the parts that we replace with non stock units are the intercooler, turbo, muffler, camshaft and the clutch."
05-10-2006, 12:07 AM
#116
As for the dyno numbers stated in the Link, I'm sure with boost you can make anything show. The numbers I find impressive is 418 HP from a 3.2L on carbs and the 463HP 3.8L RSR engine.
This business is so much about numbers. Often they get inflated to attract attention.
There is only so much air that can be flowed thro a Carb, Head port and valve assembly.
A friend of mine who builds race engines for a living, and has for a long time to world championship level, always says, "these people should stop building engines and look for the Holy Grail".
This business is so much about numbers. Often they get inflated to attract attention.
There is only so much air that can be flowed thro a Carb, Head port and valve assembly.
A friend of mine who builds race engines for a living, and has for a long time to world championship level, always says, "these people should stop building engines and look for the Holy Grail".
05-10-2006, 12:35 AM
#117
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LOL...To be honest, to most the Holy Grail is the most H.P. For me, I want a well rounded car, something in the 4-500 HP range, with great handling and is fun to drive. I just do not want to kill Mr. Piggy bank to do it knowing I may upgrade to a GT3 very soon. With that said, I would just throw the money spent out the window like many others who have built their cars to only sell them months later. I know this isnt going to be a forever car. I just want a fun car for now and the response on how to do this is so varied, Im still lost!
05-10-2006, 01:46 AM
#118
Welcome to club of lost souls. Many times, I think I'm the founder.
I agree. Its not all about the numbers. I'd rather have a car that handles and controls the power available. Throttle response will always win over more fans than pure power.
I agree. Its not all about the numbers. I'd rather have a car that handles and controls the power available. Throttle response will always win over more fans than pure power.
05-10-2006, 01:49 AM
#119
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Good point raised by M42Racer, whereas turbo engine numbers can always be defended more easily because of the boost and turbo size uknowns, a N/A engine does not that have much room to improve.
When you are claiming these HP levels on a 3.8 engine, you are blowing by the best numbers seen on the 15-20% more efficient (specific air consumption) racing 997 watercooled engines, and moreover with Motronic. Only much higher compression could (I seriously doubt it) take you there since air flow reaches its limits, which would mean the engine is good for 2 hours maybe.
When you are claiming these HP levels on a 3.8 engine, you are blowing by the best numbers seen on the 15-20% more efficient (specific air consumption) racing 997 watercooled engines, and moreover with Motronic. Only much higher compression could (I seriously doubt it) take you there since air flow reaches its limits, which would mean the engine is good for 2 hours maybe.
05-10-2006, 02:27 AM
#120
I think someones Dyno calibration is connected to the marketing dept.
I really find it odd that someone would post such numbers. How many of these 2V 3.8L RSR engines have been built around the world by many really good builders and none of them have ever come close to these numbers. 398 - 410 was tops I think.
Nitrous??
I really find it odd that someone would post such numbers. How many of these 2V 3.8L RSR engines have been built around the world by many really good builders and none of them have ever come close to these numbers. 398 - 410 was tops I think.
Nitrous??