Dyno - 447 RWHP on CIS
05-11-2006, 06:46 PM
#136
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Originally Posted by senna21
The 964 apparently uses two knock sensors attached to two separate bridges, that get attached to the two banks of heads. Knock sensors are your friends! 
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showt...0&pagenumber=2
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showt...0&pagenumber=2
05-11-2006, 09:04 PM
#137
Mine is mounted between the case and the throttle linkage mount. The long stud. The mount is shortened and the sensor is mounted between. This part of the case resonates the knock frequency of the 930 engine extremely well. Easy to fit and works well.
05-12-2006, 01:19 AM
#139
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I do not know the grind of cam. The first owner said it was a special grind for the car. As for 400 hp, it still seems like something is lacking. As I stated before, my friends car sems to be much faster and he is around the 400-500 hp range!
05-12-2006, 08:38 AM
#140
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I think that's a little unfair chaps, you don't know anything about the man or his business.
I spoke to him yesterday for about half an hour and he seams a very genuine person, he's been tuning Porsche race engines for 25 years, he said (as you can see from the dyno chart on his web site) that he gets all the power low down in the rev range when the mixture is rich and can support higher boost levels 1.3 to 1.4 bar and then back to 1.0 bar as the revs climb, he uses the stock fuel head with obvious modifications and a special KKK turbo, he says the secrets are with the turbo size and with porting correctly, I have no reason to disbelieve what he is saying, he says that with everyone worrying about getting AFR's right at high RPM they are ignoring the fact that there is plenty of fuel low down to generate a lot more power, as I’ve said before I’m no mechanic but what he say's sounds credible and makes sense, all of his figures are from his state of the art engine dyno, why do you guy's think he's full of ****??
I spoke to him yesterday for about half an hour and he seams a very genuine person, he's been tuning Porsche race engines for 25 years, he said (as you can see from the dyno chart on his web site) that he gets all the power low down in the rev range when the mixture is rich and can support higher boost levels 1.3 to 1.4 bar and then back to 1.0 bar as the revs climb, he uses the stock fuel head with obvious modifications and a special KKK turbo, he says the secrets are with the turbo size and with porting correctly, I have no reason to disbelieve what he is saying, he says that with everyone worrying about getting AFR's right at high RPM they are ignoring the fact that there is plenty of fuel low down to generate a lot more power, as I’ve said before I’m no mechanic but what he say's sounds credible and makes sense, all of his figures are from his state of the art engine dyno, why do you guy's think he's full of ****??
05-12-2006, 09:49 PM
#143
The Turbo engine power is all possible. Boost and timing can add huge numbers to the Dyno sheet. You can get any number on the dyno. You can "swing" the engine and get spikes in the Torque, anything is poosible.
But the NA numbers are what caught my eye. There are many really good engine builders who ahve bben doing this a lot longer than he has, and have achieved success in other forms of Motorsport where real numbers are required. These people have not been sleeping for the last 20 years either. They too have built 2V RSR engines for racing etc, and none of them to my knowledge have come close to 463 HP. Thats getting up there where unrestricted 4V water cooled RSR engines are running. Its these NA numbers I find interesting. Its brings all of the numbers in question. The 3.2L NA engine appears to have carbs. That engine makes as much as the 993 3.8L RSR race engines did. A 3.0L RSR engine with slides makes 325HP approx I think. That Intake must be more efficient than Carbs. You run the Intake runner open, no Venturi required.
I hate to sound like a dis believer, so I apologize to him, but sometimes things look out of place.
But the NA numbers are what caught my eye. There are many really good engine builders who ahve bben doing this a lot longer than he has, and have achieved success in other forms of Motorsport where real numbers are required. These people have not been sleeping for the last 20 years either. They too have built 2V RSR engines for racing etc, and none of them to my knowledge have come close to 463 HP. Thats getting up there where unrestricted 4V water cooled RSR engines are running. Its these NA numbers I find interesting. Its brings all of the numbers in question. The 3.2L NA engine appears to have carbs. That engine makes as much as the 993 3.8L RSR race engines did. A 3.0L RSR engine with slides makes 325HP approx I think. That Intake must be more efficient than Carbs. You run the Intake runner open, no Venturi required.
I hate to sound like a dis believer, so I apologize to him, but sometimes things look out of place.
05-12-2006, 10:40 PM
#144
Burning Brakes
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My snide remark was in reference to dyno numbers connected to the marketing department. I take dyno numbers with a grain of salt since I've experienced two like dyno's producing results that were 60 - 70 hp apart. And I've bought parts from some of our sponsors where I was told I would gain 15 hp just by bolting it on or plugging it in (never happened). I've also seen dyno sessions where guys were putting ice on the IC and 4 squirrel cage fans on the engine. Exactly what real world conditions were they reproducing? But even worse is the dyno operator who asked me what HP numbers would I like to take home...
So, when I hear a CIS car made 475RWHP with bolt on mods, I try to quietly walk away. I should tell them to pay me $100 and I'll get them 500RWHP. I'll just go buy some STP octane booster (so they feel better) then go to the adjusto-dyno, and collect my $100.
For the record, I have no opinion on the Euro-tuner guy. Never met him, never heard of him.
So, when I hear a CIS car made 475RWHP with bolt on mods, I try to quietly walk away. I should tell them to pay me $100 and I'll get them 500RWHP. I'll just go buy some STP octane booster (so they feel better) then go to the adjusto-dyno, and collect my $100.
For the record, I have no opinion on the Euro-tuner guy. Never met him, never heard of him.
05-13-2006, 05:44 AM
#145
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" But even worse is the dyno operator who asked me what HP numbers would I like to take home..."
Did that really happen?
That's incredible, come on Don tell us who it was!!!
"adjusto-dyno"
Did that really happen?
That's incredible, come on Don tell us who it was!!!"adjusto-dyno"
05-13-2006, 12:41 PM
#146
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Actually, there are times when it's appropriate for the tuner to ask "what numbers do you want?" Especially with a turbo. You can crank up the boost, put in race gas, mess with timing, and increase your power by literally hundreds of horsepower. So it's not necessarily far fetched. But if the dyno operator is suggesting he'll cook the books to give you whatever numbers you want, then that's another story.
05-13-2006, 01:50 PM
#147
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Originally Posted by Rob S
Actually, there are times when it's appropriate for the tuner to ask "what numbers do you want?" Especially with a turbo. You can crank up the boost, put in race gas, mess with timing, and increase your power by literally hundreds of horsepower. So it's not necessarily far fetched. But if the dyno operator is suggesting he'll cook the books to give you whatever numbers you want, then that's another story.
You should give it the best timing, the gas you want use and boost that will ensure the engine stays together. The engine will take what it wants, not what I want. Hopefully my expectations are in line with what the engine can produce based on my design and build.
And yes, a dyno shop actually said that. He said he could put in any correction needed to give me the numbers I wanted. During my tuning session with them, he set the correction at "no correction" because I was not interested in his numbers. I ran a baseline run, then tuned to those numbers.
05-13-2006, 02:18 PM
#148
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by nathanUK '81 930 G50
That is one way of getting it to work on a 930, fit a 964 3.6 engine.
Christian
05-13-2006, 06:36 PM
#149
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Originally Posted by DonE
When I show up at the dyno, I want as much as safely possible. Your example is like breast augmentation - on the surface, the numbers looks great, but they are not real.
You should give it the best timing, the gas you want use and boost that will ensure the engine stays together. The engine will take what it wants, not what I want. Hopefully my expectations are in line with what the engine can produce based on my design and build.
And yes, a dyno shop actually said that. He said he could put in any correction needed to give me the numbers I wanted. During my tuning session with them, he set the correction at "no correction" because I was not interested in his numbers. I ran a baseline run, then tuned to those numbers.
You should give it the best timing, the gas you want use and boost that will ensure the engine stays together. The engine will take what it wants, not what I want. Hopefully my expectations are in line with what the engine can produce based on my design and build.
And yes, a dyno shop actually said that. He said he could put in any correction needed to give me the numbers I wanted. During my tuning session with them, he set the correction at "no correction" because I was not interested in his numbers. I ran a baseline run, then tuned to those numbers.
Moreover, that sort of 7-8 second dyno run HP will never be maintained under load on a track-like environment or fast street driving.
05-13-2006, 09:53 PM
#150
RL Technical Advisor
Originally Posted by DonE
Ummm, not sure I agree with you here. It's kinda like the car salesman asking what you want your payments to be when buying a car - sleazy. Bullsh!t - tell me the real bottom line first, then we'll talk about payments applied to that number. When I show up at the dyno, I want as much as safely possible. Your example is like breast augmentation - on the surface, the numbers looks great, but they are not real.
You should give it the best timing, the gas you want use and boost that will ensure the engine stays together. The engine will take what it wants, not what I want. Hopefully my expectations are in line with what the engine can produce based on my design and build.
And yes, a dyno shop actually said that. He said he could put in any correction needed to give me the numbers I wanted. During my tuning session with them, he set the correction at "no correction" because I was not interested in his numbers. I ran a baseline run, then tuned to those numbers.
You should give it the best timing, the gas you want use and boost that will ensure the engine stays together. The engine will take what it wants, not what I want. Hopefully my expectations are in line with what the engine can produce based on my design and build.
And yes, a dyno shop actually said that. He said he could put in any correction needed to give me the numbers I wanted. During my tuning session with them, he set the correction at "no correction" because I was not interested in his numbers. I ran a baseline run, then tuned to those numbers.
I'd wholeheartedly affirm what he's written. Its all about durability; not simply a flash HP figure that is only useful for bragging rights. Almost all chassis dyno (rolling roads) results can be skewed by a competant operator to display anything you want including a satisfactory power difference after bolting on some "power enhancements".