m42racer

New to the 930 ownership I was looking at all the parts available to upgrade my engine. I called around all of the places who advertise and found that most all sell the same parts and the prices were all over the place. I was looking to upgrade to EFI and lose the CIS system. Just to change to EFI required the Intake hardware to be changed. Most advised to go with the 911 Intake. By chance I decided to have some minor work done to the car by a shop local to me. Discussing the modifications I wished to have done with the owner of shop, he told me to call this particular shop who specialized in performance Porsche and BMW engines. He told me that they use this shop for their machine work.

This shop was a find. Not only did they exactly what I need to convert to EFI, I now do not need to change my Intake system. I discussed with them I did not wish to have a big HP engine, just some more and better response. I purchased their Injector blocks, fuel rails, fuel lines, air filter assembly, and the complete Link EFI system. This kit will allow me to remove my CIS fuel system and keep the CIS manifold and big Intercooler I already have. I will post photos of the engine after all the work is done.

Bruce M.

I'm glad you're happy. But the 930 manifold really is poorly engineered. The 3.2 manifold is a properly designed manifold, and works very well with EFI. Why you would want to keep that 930 manifold is a mystery to me. How much extra does it cost to replace it? It was designed, to put it loosely, to fit the CIS system, which in turn was a dinosaur way to deliver fuel, especially for a "signature car" from Porsche.

Moreover, you say you don't want big horsepower. Will you feel that way in a year? 2 years? Going with the right manifold gives you much more flexibility...

m42racer

Simple, cost verses performance. By the time you buy one, modify it to point the butterfly the other way, mount and fit the Intercooler and other stuff, you have spent a small fortune. That is if you end up with something that looks good. In my research I saw many 3.2L manifolds on 930's which were so poorly done that any gain from the manifold was lost in the fiiting and fabrication.
If I make somewhere between 450-475Hp I will be happy as I want torque over Hp and better throttle response. If I wanted more performance than 475, then I respectfully disagree with your opinion of the 3.2L Intake. It is a poor consideration for that kind of performance, 1 butterfly, and very large volume for turbocharging. It seems to me that it is used only because it exists and fits. I considered my total budget and compromised on the manifold as the alternative did not give any great advantage, and the 930 manifold did not hurt my performance objectives. Also, I am using the original 930 Cylinders, and these have a limitation I am told. I can only relay what I was told by Neil @ Performance Developments, but he seemed to know what he was talking about, has an enormous amount of experience, and backed everything up with engineering data and flow numbers.

Bruce M.

With all due respect to YOUR opinion, as well, the best and most well known Porsche engine builders in the business use the 3.2 manifold regularly for EFI set-ups on the 930. If you really want to talk cost prohibitive, you can go to a custom manifold with individual butterlies. Short of that, the 3.2 manifold is the way to go for high horsepower set-ups. Check around. Motorsport Design, Imagine Auto, Protomotive, Jerry Woods...the list is long.

You want torque? I make 575 ft-lbs to the wheels with my 3.2 manifold and Motec engine management on a Dyno Jet.

m42racer

Bruce M., I was not trying to offend your opinion about the 3.2L manifold. My point was that all I wish for is about 450Hp with as much torque as possible. Throttle reponse is what I am after too.
I am sure many of the other tuners out there use the 3.2L manifold, but if I can acheive what I wish for with less money spent, surely this is better cost effective engineerring. I was told that I would be able to achieve my perfromance goals without going to another type of manifold, and that the parts required to use my 930 manifold with EFI, Performance Developments had. They told me that they developed them for exactly this kind of application. They did have and showed me their multi butterfly and Plenum set up, but told me that I did not need this. It is rare these days to be treated this way. I found that most tuners I had talked to before tried to sell me 3.2L manifolds, another Intercooler, Pistons and Cylinders etc. I do not want to have to change brakes, Oil system, etc to support performance I will rarely use. Isn't it about knowing your goals, and achieving them without over spending. I hope I did not offend you, as it was not my intention here. Its refreshing to come across a shop that understands what I wanted and did not try to get me to spend large amounts of money. I am sure their are many peolple that could tell me more about the merits of the 3.2L manifold as well, but I saw both 930 and 3.2L manifolds been flow tested at Performance Developments and you are right the 3.2L manifold did flow a little more than the 930, but the speed was way higher for the 930, which I was told would help with reponse and torque but would limit high Hp. I asked if my Hp goal could be achieved with the 930 manifold and was told I would. By the way, when they flowed the manifolds, they had to use 3.2L heads and 930 heads. Another cost would have been the port matching to use the 3.2L manifold. For me its not about who's got or who can make the most Hp, it was about someone listening to what I wanted and not trying to sell me something I did not require. That was why I thought it was a great find.

Sameer

m42racer,
you dont need to goto EFI with 450bhp. Just bolt on's like exhaust,headers,1 bar spring, K27 turbo,intercooler,modified air box can give you close to or maybe even 450fwhp. The CIS is good upto 470-480fwhp.
Most of us would take these steps and than goto EFI once the limitations of CIS is reached.

m42racer

Sameer,
thanks for the info. I was told this also, but when I asked for better throttle reponse, I was told by almost every tuner to use EFI. One of the great things about the Injector Blocks from Performance Developments is that they support both the mechanical Injector and an Electronic Injector. My choices were to stay with the CIS and add more fuel with their additional fuel control, which by the way has boost control and Ignition control built in, pretty niffty I thought, or to go straight to EFI and not to have to change my Intake. As you point out, its all the other parts and work needed to get to 450 Hp that eats up alot of $.

Bruce M.

No offense taken. Go for it, and let us hear how it works out.

This should be interesting, and I would love to see how it works out. You are talking horsepower levels that are traditionally attainable, at the high end, with the "classic" bolt on mods to which Sameer refers. You are getting to those levels in a different way, sort of an intermediate solution.

Do you have a sense of how much each solution costs, of the three?

I'm not familiar with the engine management system you plan to use. I assume it's cost effective?

Kevin

Bruce;

I have admired your work on your engine. I applaud the support for the 964 stroker platform. I am a firm believer of this method for building torque as a multiplier with our turbocharged engine. However, if you through out cost and time out the window. One can achieve flow numbers with a welded, hogged out CIS manifold that rival a 3.2 manifold. But, one must increase the port dimensions in excess of 41mm. Is it worth it? Well if one is trying to make a sleeper engine, with the appearance of the 930 design, it might be. We all might be better to buy a mothballed 935 engine and shoehorn it into are cars for the 600-700hp figures. By the way, what size compressor wheel are you using in your TSO4. Do you have the tag numbers from your turbo?

Kevin

Bruce M.

Kevin--Don't know the turbo details, I'm ashamed to say. Bob Holcombe built the motor, and I'm sure he once told me, but I've forgoten. My invoices don't specify anything more than the model. Next time I get a chance I'll get the specifics.

My understanding is that the 935 motor has very, very poor low end performance, and huge lag. Building up a 930 engine correctly will allow you to approach 935 peak numbers but with far more flexibility (and therefore streetability), then either a 930 engine with typical mods or a 935 engine. My car makes 250 ft-lbs at 3000 rpm to the wheels. Nowhere near as good as a modern tt engine, I know, but I bet it's a darn sight better than a 935. And it's more than double my numbers before I started my mods.

Is the result still a "930 engine"? Semantics, I suppose, and I don't really care. It's still a turbocharged flat-six, Porsche engine.

Kevin

Bruce you most likely have the TV4129 turbocharger, this is the TS04 clone. It is not a genuine 8mm shafted TSO4-SO4. With that said, please keep an eye on your shaft-thrust wear, play. It is a known issue. I'd recommend that every oil change you do, take the air intake boot off and check for play. Since this unit does not have a reinforced 360 degree thrust from the factory, thrust wear is the weak link. The TV4129 is a compact unit with some good lungs. I apologize to M42racer for the appearance of hi-jacking his thread. That's not the intent, and there is some good knowledge in all of these threads.

m42racer

Bruce,
I will post pic's of parts and of final engine assembly as soon as I can take them. I am having the heads ported slightly on the Intake to match the manifold. Most of the porting is on the exhaust ports I believe. The Pistons are being coated after crack checking and balancing. I understand from my estimate that the pistons are machined for the new camshaft. I'm hoping for the result I want, we will see. I have not yet decided upon an exhaust system and I did ask Neil which one he would recommend. He told that he could not recommend any off the shelf brand. He did show me one that they make, but the cost was huge. Which exhaust do you have. I have looked at the B&B, and another from Arizonia, I cannot remember the name. Most people I talked to told me to expect to repair often.

Bruce M.

O.k., I hope I don't sound like a complete shill for the guy, but Bob Holcombe at Motorsport Design in Scottsdale, Arizon makes gorgeous hand-fabbed exhaust systems, from the header through the exhaust. Mine was $4600, which is way high, but that was plumbed for two wastegates (my boost was overwhelming my factory wastegate and I was getting over-run). I think for your set-up his price would be $3800, specially plumbed Borla exhaust included. I don't know what that makes the delta vis a vis B&B or GHL, but in my opinion it would be worth it--No headaches, No cracks, and every little bit of airflow you can get. If I HAD to pick one of the off the shelf ones, I've heard fewer bad things about GHL than B&B, but that's not much of a recommendation.

A good header, for some reason, is almost like car **** to me. Gives me the shivers to look at one.

When it comes to headers, though, as in most things, you get what you pay for. If this Neil fellow is good, and is going to be turning the wrench on your car anyway, buying one of his headers (check the designs, the welds, etc.) might be the way to go. If you don't feel comfortable yet with his steel work, then Holcombe, I can tell you, is first-rate.

My only reservation is whether a Holcombe header, (or maybe even a Neil header--dunno), might be guilding the lily a bit, given your not insane horsepower and torque goals. They'd be reliable, but maybe more than you would need. But even if they are, now that I think of it, reliability in the end is worth dough itself.

Geoffrey

M42racer,

Interesting thread. I am very interested in what you achieve with your build. I just got done flowing a 930 intake manifold and my 3.2 Carrera manifold and there is a large difference. The 930 intake runners flowed about 182cfm. The 3.2 Carrera manifold flowed 221cfm each prior to me having it extrude honed. Additionally, if you use cams other than the stock 930 cams (which have low lift), you'll find that above .350 inches of cam lift on both the intake and exhaust ports of the stock head, the small ports tend to start choking the airflow.

My old engine was a stock 3.3l long block with only 964 cams, larger turbo, exhaust, and intercooler and made 521hp @ 1 bar. However, there was very little torque below 3500rpm which made the car feel like it was not very responsive. My stock pistons did not need to be machined for the 964cams either. I used the 3.2 Carrera intake in its stock configuration, with the throttle plate pointed to the firewall of the car.

If you are looking for a responsive turbo car, I'd be careful on how large a turbo you select, and which cams you use. You'll probably want to stick with SC, SC330, or 964 cams, with the former providing more low end performance than the later.

Also, be sure to spend your money wisely, piston coating, etc. may or may not buy you much especially if you don't do everything (heads, exhaust, etc.) and I'd be sure to ask about how well the coatings work on an air cooled engine.

Good luck and we'll be interested in what you end up with.

Bruce M.

That's "gilding the lily". Ooops.