TRG1

As an avid 911 collector, I have been fortunate enough to own at least one of every series 911 from 1965 to now (both turbo and naturally aspirated). I am noticing a sharp value divergence among the late model air-cooled classics.
It is worth noting that among serious collectors, the 1965 thru 1998 air colled
are considered "classics" for one main reasons. All of the air cooled cars
were virtually hand made. Most non-Pcar owners do not realize just how small the annual production of each series of air cooled 911's were relative to other popular sports cars. Every air cooled 911 produced was expensive because of the labor input costs. Hand-made cars are expensive to produce and during the production runs for the air cooled years, Porsche struggled to stay afloat. Porsche was eventually forced to adopt more modern assembly line manufacturing techniques with the introduction of the water cooled cars, and annual production increases were and are significant.
From a value perspective, most air cooled classics suffer from the fact that most 911 owners are enthusiasts and thus like to "personalize" their cars. The kiss of death to a serious collector, as pure stock examples will always be most desireable and command the premium. Tip of the day to every owner tempted to "personalize" your 911. At least save every original part you take off--yes--even the original radio. Steering wheels, stereos, custom wheels, non-stock spoilers, and most engine mods may make the car more desireable to the owner--but shouts "Ricky Racer" to a serious collector. Obviously high miles and re-sprays (even original color) are a value killer also. If modifying your 911 gives you pleasure and enhances the ownership experience-- by all means go for it. But if you want the highest possible value downstream-pure stock rocks.

race911

And on the other hand I've gotten more enjoyment over 30+ years (and likewise every air cooled platform from SWB to 993) driving the cars. Competing with them at times. When I was 18 and got the '68, if I concentrated on bringing it back to purrrrdy Aubergine instead of hacking it into an IROC wannabe with a 2.7RS spec engine...........well, I wouldn't have gotten into mechanics, owned my own Porsche shop, raced Porsches, met any number of Porsche racers (regular guy-to-world class), etc. etc. (And one of the "etc." benefits was a Porsche owning woman or two along the way.) Just two weeks ago an ex-IMSA competitor, Daytona class winner with a GT2 and later competed with a GT1 looked me up to assess some stuff he has left over.

Nor do I regret not preserving history by cutting into an untold number of '75-'77 POS cars destined for the junkyard, and make them into slopenoses during the craze of the late '80s.

Bottom line, it's what I did with the cars that I'm remembering now that I'm well into middle age. Not that I whacked one out in the garage looking over the something that was factory built with obscure options. Wouldn't bother me in the least if every "serious collector" fell off the face of the planet and got interested in Egyptian antiquities.

ivangene

OK

well let me know when the serious collectors become interested in run of the mill cars with 200k miles and I will stop making mine so personal - till then I'm out for the "Fun factor" which seems to be missing from your study

Cheers Mate

500

Allthough there are a lot of good reasons why the air-cooled cars are special, I often wonder about this persistent idea that they were more hand-made relative to the later cars.

When I did the factory tour in 2004 (during the 996 days) I saw ALL the same manufacturing processes and methods that seem to have been employed in the seventies and eighties:

1) Each motor was still assembled by one worker, start to finish.

2) The assembly line still was a very slow moving platform where the workers each would perform a series of steps in the process (instead of just one). And they were regularly rotated through different jobs.

3) Each motor was tested on a dyno.

The only assembly robot was the one that put the windshields in, and it was used because it could do a better job than humans could. I can't think of any way in which the Porsches of 25-ish years ago were actually more "hand-made"

What did change at Porsche in the early 90s was a great move towards manufacturing efficiency, such as JIT inventory control as well as building more quality into the process (Kaizen - continuous improvement) instead of fixing (often the same) problems at final inspection. Plus, as the new cars were developed, a much greater focus was put onto supply chain rationalization with fewer model-specific parts. The 993 was much cheaper to produce than the 964 due to these improvements. So, one might argue that the 993 shares more with the 996 in terms of manufacturing philosophy than with the 964.

I love the air-cooled cars (heck, that's what I have), but I feel the current cars are better-built and more consistent.

I agree with what you say about originality. But I think there is a point where for the later, galvanized cars it is not so important, as more survive (and production numbers were higher in the later years). A so-so Carrera with high miles and shot paint is going to take a LONG time to appreciate to some sort of collectable value. However, as you suggest, if it is a nicer car, without so many miles, it will see a value upsurge at some point. But then you have to consider how many miles you want to put on it too.

Brads911sc

99% of our cars will never be collectable. Air cooled or not... The constant on all collectable production cars (with the exception of rare cars) is that they have super low miles, original paint, original engines, original interiors. An SC with 95k miles, is never going to be considered collectable whether original or not. If it had 20k miles, perhaps. So I think most of us that buy cars with over 50k miles are best suited to enjoy our cars and focus on the fun factor.

rusnak

There were some options, such as AC, radio equipment, cb radios, etc that were sold as factory options, but were installed at either the dealer shop or in Reno. In fact, Reno did some re-sprays. Is there a consensus on these items, I wonder? And there are collectible models, such as an RS that only a fool would modify. My 3.2 911 is not so much a collectors car imo.

UberXY

every Porsche guy needs to watch the five part film on YouTube - "Made by Hand". It's amazing how little automation - if any - was involved in making 356s. Here is part 1:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQBrQ5qd5w8

ked

some owners seem to be unclear about the distinction between collecting & investing.
also, between "taking a bath", "not losing much money" & "making money".

the "original 911" was designed & engineered for hand-production, the 964 & subsequent models were designed & engineered for automated production (which had developed considerably since the early '60s) and in response to demanding regulations as well as "lessons learned" after a 25 yr run. the new paint shop / body production facility was brought on-line w/ the 964.

race911

Look how many RSs were hacked up early in their life. Maybe the tide turned in the early '90s when they shot past $50K? Though my friend bought a quasi-lightweight in about '95 for $25K, a Sepia Brown turned Grand Prix White car, and we mechanically modified it for autocross. He got his $100K+ out of it to buy a new GT3 when those came out.

How about one of the original IROC cars? Another friend got the Sepia Brown one (ugh, that color haunts me for 30 years now) one, fully "updated" from years and years of racing. I'm not sure of the restoration status lately, but Gunnar Racing was doing it. Ex-Pablo Escobar; purchased for one of his nephews or someone in the family to race. Once the car is back in original form, I'd say it will be worth pretty much what any of the other IROC cars are. (I get that factory race cars are a slightly different discussion.)

rusnak

Werks II, was the automated facility right?

I guess race cars are bought for their provenance. And then there are the 911S longhoods that command actronomical prices. They are all pretty much modified, no? How original must they be before value goes the other way? If I came across a modified 916, I would be disappointed. A modified RSR, not so much.

ked

Werk II was built in '52. Werk I was the original Zuffenhausen facility. The must be up to Werk 20 by now! anyway, from the Official site...
"1988 marked the beginning of a new era in body shell assembly. The newly constructed body plant was opened for use, with 15 robots in operation for the first time. In July 1989, the last 911 body left the old Reutter building."
nice (out-of-date) photo...
http://www.porsche.com/international...ionoperations/

one I took of the chassis going from body to assembly - the tours do not allow you into the body / paint shop (at least, not the one I was on a coupla yrs ago - & worth the $!)...

g-50cab

As an avid 911 driver - I value both the ability to enhance 1980's technology (or 1970's in my case) and the overall driving experience, whether that be on the road, or track.

Personally whenever I see a stock car, sitting in someone's garage, getting it's weekly rub down with a diaper - I think - Poor Car.

They run better when run hard. Sure keep the stock parts - but really - I am a big believer in making the car your own. If I leave a few bucks on the table at trade in time - then I'll deal with that too - with a smile on my face...

TRG1

Where does it say that you cannot be an avid "driver" and "collector" at the same time? I've owned over 50 911's and highly modified at least 40 of them.
I no longer modify street cars into track cars because I have the unique good fortune of having access to the very best modified Cup cars in the country.

I just returned home this am from the Rolex 24 at Daytona (where we won the GT class for the fourth time). I could have fllown to and from the race, but instead preferred to drive my '89 sunroof delete coupe, even though the trip rolled my odometer from just under 8K to over 9K. I am constantly asked to evaluate potential purchases and perform PPI's on classic 911s. We all know pretty much what to look for and what to avoid for a car which we intend as a driver. A collectable investment requires very specific consideration and verification. Everyone I talk to wants a one owner, low mile, original condition classic, mostly from '87-'89. The market for high mile, not quite stock drivers varies from the low teens to maybe the mid twenties. If you want low miles, original paint and equiptment, expect to pony-up over thirty and higher. I have a long list of friends who are "Drivers" and are also willing to pay for the elusive correct car to invest in or "collect". My advice--do both. Get two or better yet three. One as a reliable daily driver, a second as a wacked out track car, and a third "investment" into an original low mile car. Trust me--you will have fun with all three. BTW--if you own three or more, does that make you a "collector"?

Brads911sc

A collector of cars doesnt mean his cars are "collectable". If I went out and bought 6 VW beetles from the early 70's does that mean I have a collectable. Maybe to me as the owner.. but not to those that are collecting a 57 TBird, or old 356... collectable requires some level of rare-ness (not sure if thats a word). Like 1 of 20 made, or 1 of 50 left on the planet. or 1 of 100 with less than 10k miles... etc. These rare traits deem them collectable in the collectable world. there are too many 74-89 cars on the road right now to even have this discussion. Go to the big auction houses selling their cream puffs for 50k, 100k or 200k. you ever see a common production 911 made after 73? nope. too many of them made. too many in great condition. too many with low mileage... will be another 25 years before your 89 is rated by the true concourse collectors as collectable, if ever... then you might not even be here... if you want to buy a collectable.. go by a 356 or early 911 (pre 73) and keep the mileage low. There is a good chance your 89 will never reach that stature during your lifetime. 30k is not a collectable. I can buy a new VW sedan that costs more than that... when a car is 2-3x its original purchase price or more... it starts to get there. on your 30k 89, You are still dealing with a car that has a 50% depreciation rate. jmho...

TRG1

I failed to mention that my '89 is an original Club Sport. I know where another one with 14K is for sale for just north of $130K if you are interested.