VALUE TREND DIVERGANCE
01-31-2011, 06:21 PM
#16
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Werk II was built in '52. Werk I was the original Zuffenhausen facility. The must be up to Werk 20 by now! anyway, from the Official site...
"1988 marked the beginning of a new era in body shell assembly. The newly constructed body plant was opened for use, with 15 robots in operation for the first time. In July 1989, the last 911 body left the old Reutter building."
nice (out-of-date) photo...
http://www.porsche.com/international...ionoperations/
one I took of the chassis going from body to assembly - the tours do not allow you into the body / paint shop (at least, not the one I was on a coupla yrs ago - & worth the $!)...
"1988 marked the beginning of a new era in body shell assembly. The newly constructed body plant was opened for use, with 15 robots in operation for the first time. In July 1989, the last 911 body left the old Reutter building."
nice (out-of-date) photo...
http://www.porsche.com/international...ionoperations/
one I took of the chassis going from body to assembly - the tours do not allow you into the body / paint shop (at least, not the one I was on a coupla yrs ago - & worth the $!)...
Before the automated welding facilty was opened, you had workers manipulating the spot welders instead of robots, but this still doesn't mean hand-made to me. If it does, then Fords were hand made too, before the advent of robots. Robot welders are not just productive, they actually do a better, more consistent job (as they do in paint application as well).
I think Porsche has always strived to make a well-built product (as opposed to a hand-built product) and as manufacturing processes have evolved, Porsche has kept pace.
01-31-2011, 06:36 PM
#17
Burning Brakes
I'm with Brad on this one.
Jay Leno knows a thing or two about 'collectibles'
While he does not address the Porsche Cars in particular, he has some guidelines that are pretty clear cut for investing in cars. Using Jays rules would pretty much rule out most Porsche Cars (x a few) as collectible.
Jay Leno knows a thing or two about 'collectibles'
While he does not address the Porsche Cars in particular, he has some guidelines that are pretty clear cut for investing in cars. Using Jays rules would pretty much rule out most Porsche Cars (x a few) as collectible.
01-31-2011, 06:49 PM
#18
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Not trying to slam anyone in the UAW, but there is a huge difference between a mass produced FORD or any other domestic car and a classic 911. The German auto labor force is more like an old world "guild"
where the workers are considered craftsmen. Any American auto produced from the early sixties to the late eighties was often the victim of indifferent production quality.
where the workers are considered craftsmen. Any American auto produced from the early sixties to the late eighties was often the victim of indifferent production quality.
01-31-2011, 06:54 PM
#19
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Well then "you" have a "collectable". but the normal guy or gal on here that has a 30k, 20k miles 89 coupe... does NOT have a collectable car... nor will they probably ever break into the same rhealm. regardless of whether its original or not... rarity is key... whether model, mileage, etc. Cant be one of 5,000 cars that are all similar and claim collectable status. For that reason... we should focus on the fun factor... unless we own a car like you do... Just my .02.
01-31-2011, 07:04 PM
#20
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You may be surprised to see what a 20K mile totally stock original '89 coupe will bring. I believe they imported 1156 coupes into the US in '89. Far short of 5,000 cars. Most non-Pcar owners think that the classic 911s were at much higher production levels because to the the shape is undistinguishable (for a novice) from about 1974 to 1989. Low annual production, but a lot of years of the same looking shape.
I used to think '87-'89 cars were ubiquitous. Now, I'm a cash buyer for any low mile original condition
coupe, (especialley 1989). They have reached the tipping point and are actually appreciating.
I used to think '87-'89 cars were ubiquitous. Now, I'm a cash buyer for any low mile original condition
coupe, (especialley 1989). They have reached the tipping point and are actually appreciating.
01-31-2011, 07:09 PM
#21
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As an avid 911 collector, I have been fortunate enough to own at least one of every series 911 from 1965 to now (both turbo and naturally aspirated). I am noticing a sharp value divergence among the late model air-cooled classics.
It is worth noting that among serious collectors, the 1965 thru 1998 air colled
are considered "classics" for one main reasons. All of the air cooled cars
were virtually hand made. Most non-Pcar owners do not realize just how small the annual production of each series of air cooled 911's were relative to other popular sports cars. Every air cooled 911 produced was expensive because of the labor input costs. Hand-made cars are expensive to produce and during the production runs for the air cooled years, Porsche struggled to stay afloat. Porsche was eventually forced to adopt more modern assembly line manufacturing techniques with the introduction of the water cooled cars, and annual production increases were and are significant.
From a value perspective, most air cooled classics suffer from the fact that most 911 owners are enthusiasts and thus like to "personalize" their cars. The kiss of death to a serious collector, as pure stock examples will always be most desireable and command the premium. Tip of the day to every owner tempted to "personalize" your 911. At least save every original part you take off--yes--even the original radio. Steering wheels, stereos, custom wheels, non-stock spoilers, and most engine mods may make the car more desireable to the owner--but shouts "Ricky Racer" to a serious collector. Obviously high miles and re-sprays (even original color) are a value killer also. If modifying your 911 gives you pleasure and enhances the ownership experience-- by all means go for it. But if you want the highest possible value downstream-pure stock rocks.
It is worth noting that among serious collectors, the 1965 thru 1998 air colled
are considered "classics" for one main reasons. All of the air cooled cars
were virtually hand made. Most non-Pcar owners do not realize just how small the annual production of each series of air cooled 911's were relative to other popular sports cars. Every air cooled 911 produced was expensive because of the labor input costs. Hand-made cars are expensive to produce and during the production runs for the air cooled years, Porsche struggled to stay afloat. Porsche was eventually forced to adopt more modern assembly line manufacturing techniques with the introduction of the water cooled cars, and annual production increases were and are significant.
From a value perspective, most air cooled classics suffer from the fact that most 911 owners are enthusiasts and thus like to "personalize" their cars. The kiss of death to a serious collector, as pure stock examples will always be most desireable and command the premium. Tip of the day to every owner tempted to "personalize" your 911. At least save every original part you take off--yes--even the original radio. Steering wheels, stereos, custom wheels, non-stock spoilers, and most engine mods may make the car more desireable to the owner--but shouts "Ricky Racer" to a serious collector. Obviously high miles and re-sprays (even original color) are a value killer also. If modifying your 911 gives you pleasure and enhances the ownership experience-- by all means go for it. But if you want the highest possible value downstream-pure stock rocks.
Gotta love the internet...
Here's the 'before & after'...the same G50 Carrera in 2001 and 2011. Oh no! He ruined it!!!
01-31-2011, 07:27 PM
#23
Burning Brakes
01-31-2011, 07:29 PM
#24
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Not trying to slam anyone in the UAW, but there is a huge difference between a mass produced FORD or any other domestic car and a classic 911. The German auto labor force is more like an old world "guild"
where the workers are considered craftsmen. Any American auto produced from the early sixties to the late eighties was often the victim of indifferent production quality.
where the workers are considered craftsmen. Any American auto produced from the early sixties to the late eighties was often the victim of indifferent production quality.
01-31-2011, 07:29 PM
#25
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Thanks, Brad.
Which reminds me: I almost bought a 1988 Club Sport in 2006 (for $45K) but aside from its "rarity" it really wasn't much different than my (then) garden variety Carrera. Previously I had two RS Americas, Porsches which still get little respect from the "real RS experts", that were a lot more entertaining to drive than the CS.
But, oops, actually driving a low-mile CS diminishes its collector status/value. Can't have that.
My post was written tongue in cheek, no offense to the original poster who obviously confuses the terms "collector" and "enthusiast".
To each his/her own. If we all were passionate about the same things it would be a boring world!
Which reminds me: I almost bought a 1988 Club Sport in 2006 (for $45K) but aside from its "rarity" it really wasn't much different than my (then) garden variety Carrera. Previously I had two RS Americas, Porsches which still get little respect from the "real RS experts", that were a lot more entertaining to drive than the CS.
But, oops, actually driving a low-mile CS diminishes its collector status/value. Can't have that.
My post was written tongue in cheek, no offense to the original poster who obviously confuses the terms "collector" and "enthusiast".
To each his/her own. If we all were passionate about the same things it would be a boring world!
01-31-2011, 08:04 PM
#26
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jackb911--Brads911sc does not speak for me--I love your conversion and want to buy it--interested?
Also--I do actually drive my low mile CS and it doesn't't diminish its status or value to me--the only one that mattere in my book. Where in my original post do you find confusion between the terms "collector" and "enthusiast"? Again--I consider myself to be both.
Also--I do actually drive my low mile CS and it doesn't't diminish its status or value to me--the only one that mattere in my book. Where in my original post do you find confusion between the terms "collector" and "enthusiast"? Again--I consider myself to be both.
01-31-2011, 08:16 PM
#27
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wow, we got us a regular hurley haywood here. Over 50 porsches, asked to do ppis and evaluate cars, and access to modified cup cars
don't dare drive your cars folks. they're collectibe
don't dare drive your cars folks. they're collectibe
01-31-2011, 08:40 PM
#28
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"... this still doesn't mean hand-made to me."
500, There is more to "hand built" than the type of welding (as I'm sure you are aware). It is the degree to which automated processes are employed vs tasks demanding hands-on labor, the time alloted to perform tasks, the style of quality achieved. 911s were assembled in the same building pretty much the same manner that 356s had been - no moving assembly line, but chassis on carts, & etc. I did not come to this pov from whole-cloth, but via the writings of Frere, Ludvigsen & Ferry himself, who wrote in "We At Porsche" ('76);
" ... we placed the responsibility for assembling an engine, or ... a complete chassis on one man. We continued to allocate individual responsibility for work done & we still operate on this principle today..."
& Wiedeking's description of the original facilities,
"Stone Age, really Stone Age. Decades later, Porsche was still using old techniques."
Perhaps that is what brings us to these distinctions between the driving, servicing & valuation of the 911 & 964 (& later) cars. The old ones seem to have character (inc character flaws!), they communicate, they deliver organic (or orgasmic? analog? palpable?) experience. Old ones are imminently servicable - "built by men, repairable by a man" has occured to me whenever I struggle fixing the damn thing. & now they are, arguably, collectable - perhaps even to point of being a business case, in some cases. After all, we're not too many years away from the first 911s being a half century old.
500, There is more to "hand built" than the type of welding (as I'm sure you are aware). It is the degree to which automated processes are employed vs tasks demanding hands-on labor, the time alloted to perform tasks, the style of quality achieved. 911s were assembled in the same building pretty much the same manner that 356s had been - no moving assembly line, but chassis on carts, & etc. I did not come to this pov from whole-cloth, but via the writings of Frere, Ludvigsen & Ferry himself, who wrote in "We At Porsche" ('76);
" ... we placed the responsibility for assembling an engine, or ... a complete chassis on one man. We continued to allocate individual responsibility for work done & we still operate on this principle today..."
& Wiedeking's description of the original facilities,
"Stone Age, really Stone Age. Decades later, Porsche was still using old techniques."
Perhaps that is what brings us to these distinctions between the driving, servicing & valuation of the 911 & 964 (& later) cars. The old ones seem to have character (inc character flaws!), they communicate, they deliver organic (or orgasmic? analog? palpable?) experience. Old ones are imminently servicable - "built by men, repairable by a man" has occured to me whenever I struggle fixing the damn thing. & now they are, arguably, collectable - perhaps even to point of being a business case, in some cases. After all, we're not too many years away from the first 911s being a half century old.
01-31-2011, 09:44 PM
#29
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Quadcammer--No, I'm not Hurley Haywood, but he is a personal friend. Come see us at the Porsche Driving School at Barbers and I'll introduce you. And yes, I think it is a fair statement to say I have access to the finest prepared Cup cars in the country. I think our Grand Am record should make that clear. Make you a deal. Since you are from NJ, come by the new NJ motorsports park and visit our new facility. You can even bring a car for a PPI and I'll perform it myself and waive my normal $250 fee.