VALUE TREND DIVERGANCE
01-31-2011, 10:28 PM
#31
Drifting
Most of us can not afford three or four 911's. Most of us do not have access to cup cars or the finest that porsche has to offer (from their current stable, anyway)
Most of us are destined to drive what we bring to the table.
I say - a majority of these cars are not collectible.
If you have a club sport, or long hood e, or s - or one of the other special cars that are given a separate digit in their VIN - then yep - keep it real.
If you don't - or you have one of those cars that falls from 1974-1989 and looks like all the other 911's from that era. Then make it your own.
But don't take my advice - really - I have a hacked up 1974s wide body. Not much original to it. But not many like it either - and that does put a smile on my face
01-31-2011, 10:28 PM
#32
Racer
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We prefer humble types like Steve Weiner, Peter Zimmerman, Ed Hughes and John Walker and others on this forum. Doubt anyone on this board would want you doing their PPI after reading this thread. Im just sayin... Good luck. Im signing out of this thread.
Quadcammer--No, I'm not Hurley Haywood, but he is a personal friend. Come see us at the Porsche Driving School at Barbers and I'll introduce you. And yes, I think it is a fair statement to say I have access to the finest prepared Cup cars in the country. I think our Grand Am record should make that clear. Make you a deal. Since you are from NJ, come by the new NJ motorsports park and visit our new facility. You can even bring a car for a PPI and I'll perform it myself and waive my normal $250 fee.
01-31-2011, 10:39 PM
#33
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Actually Brad, I've been a member for over ten years. In 2010 I had the misfortune of having a '81 SC stolen while visiting in Houston (ironically).
Lost my laptop in the theft (a serious nightmare). I did the sensible thing,
rejoined and utalized a different log in name. Now you wouldn't be the kind of person who measures a fellow members credibility by the number of posts would you? Why I see you have a whopping total under 500 posts yourself. HMMM, we both must be pure rookies compared to Quadcammer with his 2600+ posts, which makes him the fountain of knowledge.
Yes, I have owned a lot of Pcars over the years and I think that i have acquired more than passing insight into these incredible machines. As for hanging out with mere mortals, well I find them the most interesting creatures on the planet.
Lost my laptop in the theft (a serious nightmare). I did the sensible thing,
rejoined and utalized a different log in name. Now you wouldn't be the kind of person who measures a fellow members credibility by the number of posts would you? Why I see you have a whopping total under 500 posts yourself. HMMM, we both must be pure rookies compared to Quadcammer with his 2600+ posts, which makes him the fountain of knowledge.
Yes, I have owned a lot of Pcars over the years and I think that i have acquired more than passing insight into these incredible machines. As for hanging out with mere mortals, well I find them the most interesting creatures on the planet.
01-31-2011, 10:41 PM
#34
Racer
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I stand corrected.. Your boasting/knowledge just came across abit heavy. Im not an expert.. Just an enthusiast who has the bug and cant stop modifying an otherwise ok car.
01-31-2011, 10:53 PM
#35
Instructor
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I still have all the cassette holders and in excellent shape. I took them out thinking someone restoring theirs to original might want them someday and understand that for the right car. I have no need to put them back in. 165,000 miles, the rebuilt 3.0 engine is not original, dash, mats, stereo, windshield. Don't know where any of this stuff is and don't care but my new engine came in last Friday 
.
I'm here for a good time.
. I'm here for a good time.
02-01-2011, 01:24 PM
#36
RL Community Team
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"... this still doesn't mean hand-made to me."
500, There is more to "hand built" than the type of welding (as I'm sure you are aware). It is the degree to which automated processes are employed vs tasks demanding hands-on labor, the time alloted to perform tasks, the style of quality achieved. 911s were assembled in the same building pretty much the same manner that 356s had been - no moving assembly line, but chassis on carts, & etc. I did not come to this pov from whole-cloth, but via the writings of Frere, Ludvigsen & Ferry himself, who wrote in "We At Porsche" ('76);
" ... we placed the responsibility for assembling an engine, or ... a complete chassis on one man. We continued to allocate individual responsibility for work done & we still operate on this principle today..."
& Wiedeking's description of the original facilities,
"Stone Age, really Stone Age. Decades later, Porsche was still using old techniques."
Perhaps that is what brings us to these distinctions between the driving, servicing & valuation of the 911 & 964 (& later) cars. The old ones seem to have character (inc character flaws!), they communicate, they deliver organic (or orgasmic? analog? palpable?) experience. Old ones are imminently servicable - "built by men, repairable by a man" has occured to me whenever I struggle fixing the damn thing. & now they are, arguably, collectable - perhaps even to point of being a business case, in some cases. After all, we're not too many years away from the first 911s being a half century old.
500, There is more to "hand built" than the type of welding (as I'm sure you are aware). It is the degree to which automated processes are employed vs tasks demanding hands-on labor, the time alloted to perform tasks, the style of quality achieved. 911s were assembled in the same building pretty much the same manner that 356s had been - no moving assembly line, but chassis on carts, & etc. I did not come to this pov from whole-cloth, but via the writings of Frere, Ludvigsen & Ferry himself, who wrote in "We At Porsche" ('76);
" ... we placed the responsibility for assembling an engine, or ... a complete chassis on one man. We continued to allocate individual responsibility for work done & we still operate on this principle today..."
& Wiedeking's description of the original facilities,
"Stone Age, really Stone Age. Decades later, Porsche was still using old techniques."
Perhaps that is what brings us to these distinctions between the driving, servicing & valuation of the 911 & 964 (& later) cars. The old ones seem to have character (inc character flaws!), they communicate, they deliver organic (or orgasmic? analog? palpable?) experience. Old ones are imminently servicable - "built by men, repairable by a man" has occured to me whenever I struggle fixing the damn thing. & now they are, arguably, collectable - perhaps even to point of being a business case, in some cases. After all, we're not too many years away from the first 911s being a half century old.
Yes, a lot of the methods were "stone age" back then, but that was not because of a concious decision to make things better, because as you allude, many of the old methods were imperfect.
But that is my opinion only and it will be the last I say on it. I have been in many manufacturing plants in different countries, as part of my job, and I am familiar with how things were done in Zuffenhausen 25 years ago and (in my view) it shared more with mass-production tenants than with hand-building. The quotes you reference make the point that Porsche puts a lot of care in making cars, and has a philosophy of having workers involve in more than a single step of the process. True then, true today.
02-02-2011, 02:05 AM
#38
Addict
Actually Brad, I've been a member for over ten years. In 2010 I had the misfortune of having a '81 SC stolen while visiting in Houston (ironically).
Lost my laptop in the theft (a serious nightmare). I did the sensible thing,
rejoined and utalized a different log in name. Now you wouldn't be the kind of person who measures a fellow members credibility by the number of posts would you? Why I see you have a whopping total under 500 posts yourself. HMMM, we both must be pure rookies compared to Quadcammer with his 2600+ posts, which makes him the fountain of knowledge.
Yes, I have owned a lot of Pcars over the years and I think that i have acquired more than passing insight into these incredible machines. As for hanging out with mere mortals, well I find them the most interesting creatures on the planet.
Lost my laptop in the theft (a serious nightmare). I did the sensible thing,
rejoined and utalized a different log in name. Now you wouldn't be the kind of person who measures a fellow members credibility by the number of posts would you? Why I see you have a whopping total under 500 posts yourself. HMMM, we both must be pure rookies compared to Quadcammer with his 2600+ posts, which makes him the fountain of knowledge.
Yes, I have owned a lot of Pcars over the years and I think that i have acquired more than passing insight into these incredible machines. As for hanging out with mere mortals, well I find them the most interesting creatures on the planet.
02-02-2011, 02:13 AM
#39
I haddah Google dat
Rennlist Member
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most of this thread went sailing right over my head, but I did happen to see an invitation to meet Hurley Haywood. I would probably jump all over that one!
02-02-2011, 01:21 PM
#40
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"I think this thread got a bit hijacked by the "hand built", "not hand built" crowd. Now THIS is hand built."
I thought it deserved hijacking.
Those guys at Trabant were talented! (picked up some tips for adjusting things on my kids E30s, too)
Hand-built means something a little different in a Communist Workers paradise. I suspect those guys are line supervisors at the Cayenne / Panamera plant these days.
I thought it deserved hijacking.
Those guys at Trabant were talented! (picked up some tips for adjusting things on my kids E30s, too)
Hand-built means something a little different in a Communist Workers paradise. I suspect those guys are line supervisors at the Cayenne / Panamera plant these days.
02-02-2011, 07:41 PM
#41
As an avid 911 collector, I have been fortunate enough to own at least one of every series 911 from 1965 to now (both turbo and naturally aspirated). I am noticing a sharp value divergence among the late model air-cooled classics.
It is worth noting that among serious collectors, the 1965 thru 1998 air colled
are considered "classics" for one main reasons. All of the air cooled cars
were virtually hand made. Most non-Pcar owners do not realize just how small the annual production of each series of air cooled 911's were relative to other popular sports cars. Every air cooled 911 produced was expensive because of the labor input costs. Hand-made cars are expensive to produce and during the production runs for the air cooled years, Porsche struggled to stay afloat. Porsche was eventually forced to adopt more modern assembly line manufacturing techniques with the introduction of the water cooled cars, and annual production increases were and are significant.
From a value perspective, most air cooled classics suffer from the fact that most 911 owners are enthusiasts and thus like to "personalize" their cars. The kiss of death to a serious collector, as pure stock examples will always be most desireable and command the premium. Tip of the day to every owner tempted to "personalize" your 911. At least save every original part you take off--yes--even the original radio. Steering wheels, stereos, custom wheels, non-stock spoilers, and most engine mods may make the car more desireable to the owner--but shouts "Ricky Racer" to a serious collector. Obviously high miles and re-sprays (even original color) are a value killer also. If modifying your 911 gives you pleasure and enhances the ownership experience-- by all means go for it. But if you want the highest possible value downstream-pure stock rocks.
It is worth noting that among serious collectors, the 1965 thru 1998 air colled
are considered "classics" for one main reasons. All of the air cooled cars
were virtually hand made. Most non-Pcar owners do not realize just how small the annual production of each series of air cooled 911's were relative to other popular sports cars. Every air cooled 911 produced was expensive because of the labor input costs. Hand-made cars are expensive to produce and during the production runs for the air cooled years, Porsche struggled to stay afloat. Porsche was eventually forced to adopt more modern assembly line manufacturing techniques with the introduction of the water cooled cars, and annual production increases were and are significant.
From a value perspective, most air cooled classics suffer from the fact that most 911 owners are enthusiasts and thus like to "personalize" their cars. The kiss of death to a serious collector, as pure stock examples will always be most desireable and command the premium. Tip of the day to every owner tempted to "personalize" your 911. At least save every original part you take off--yes--even the original radio. Steering wheels, stereos, custom wheels, non-stock spoilers, and most engine mods may make the car more desireable to the owner--but shouts "Ricky Racer" to a serious collector. Obviously high miles and re-sprays (even original color) are a value killer also. If modifying your 911 gives you pleasure and enhances the ownership experience-- by all means go for it. But if you want the highest possible value downstream-pure stock rocks.
While I agree with much of what is being said here, it is not just Porsche's where originality is important, but ALL vehicles from a serious collectors standpoint. Leno and others are known to be searching out UNRESTORED examples of old cars. Other collectors are starting to admit shame in "over restoring" of a car. And others who simply took an old vin plate and remade an entire car around it.
Now, the debate of whether a run of the mill '89 coupe is a "collector" car is up for debate. Only time will prove this out as the supply of cars diminishes. As for scarcity, the '90 and 91 944S2 Coupes were imported in even fewer numbers.. some 500 each year but NO one out here would admit to thinking that this model is "collectible" even if completely original.
I would also wager that folks who own 911s bought them to be driven. They were "dreams of their youth" or some such emotional attachment has been laid upon them. They are something to be driven and enjoyed and NOT merely gazed upon as a possible retirement plan.
I prefer the 911 owner who is of the first ilk.. I am not a fan of the speculator.
02-03-2011, 02:01 AM
#42
Rennlist Member
I guess I'm trying to figure out the purpose of this thread. I think most of us recognize the value of a low mile pristine 911, and that all of us certainly respect such cars. Most of us here do not have such a car.
I could buy just about any 911 I want, but truthfully, have enjoyed every minute of modifying Ruby in the process of bringing her back from a semi-neglected state. The other side of this is with a pristine car with low miles, I just don't think I'd enjoy her the same, and wouldn't want the "stress" (self-induced) of maintaining perfection. I've gone thru that before and finally sold the car before I racked up too many miles or hosed something up. I recently bought my 993, and considered ultra low mile creampuffs, but ended up with what I feel was a well-loved car with moderate miles that I'm not afraid to drive and enjoy. It also has a few details that I can tend to in the process of improving her. I'll keep her mostly stock, as I think she'll retain more value as more or less unmolested, but I'm not going to obsess over that.
Each to their own. But, as evidenced here, you'll find few of us looking at these cars as an investment, and more of us looking at them as an obsession and hobby.
I could buy just about any 911 I want, but truthfully, have enjoyed every minute of modifying Ruby in the process of bringing her back from a semi-neglected state. The other side of this is with a pristine car with low miles, I just don't think I'd enjoy her the same, and wouldn't want the "stress" (self-induced) of maintaining perfection. I've gone thru that before and finally sold the car before I racked up too many miles or hosed something up. I recently bought my 993, and considered ultra low mile creampuffs, but ended up with what I feel was a well-loved car with moderate miles that I'm not afraid to drive and enjoy. It also has a few details that I can tend to in the process of improving her. I'll keep her mostly stock, as I think she'll retain more value as more or less unmolested, but I'm not going to obsess over that.
Each to their own. But, as evidenced here, you'll find few of us looking at these cars as an investment, and more of us looking at them as an obsession and hobby.
