jsabatini

Have been doing DE's since '96 or so, been through the National PCA Instructor training, been instructing since 2000, etc. However, all my track driving has been in my '90 BMW 325is.

Contemplating taking the '87 911 to the November Suncoast PCA Instructor weekend and looking for recomendations on brake pads, brake fluid, etc. Car is basically stock, has a chip, upgraded the shocks a few years ago, 125,xxx miles, just had oil and fluids changed, valve adjustment, fixed a bunch of oil leaks etc.

With my Bimmer, which has been extensively modified for track use, I would use Hawk race pads for track use and then switch to regular pads for daily driving, so I am not against doing the same with the 911. Honestly, not sure what brake fluid is in the 911, have always used Super Blue and Type 2000 in the Bimmer. Need to also check the rotors.

Thanks!

g-50cab

Hey John -

At Sebring I think the biggest weak spot on the stock carreras is brakes (and how you use them) if you stick to stock tire size street tires - then I'd recommend you go with either a Motul RBF600 0r 660 (you can get from Maestro Subaru on Hillsborough) and hawk blues or pfc97's- if you go with r compound tires - then you will probably need to add some under arm cooling aka the AJUSA or smart racing scoops.

Other than that - the Carreras are great fun - very fast - but hard to drive/rewarding to drive at the limit. See you out there - I missed the last one due to a too small brake pin and too much travel..

jsabatini

Thanks, tires are Toyo T1s but will more than likely go with some type of additional cooling ducts in the future. How much of the Motul do I need?

g-50cab

I think they come in 1/2 pint. I can usually bleed using just one bottle if I do it right - otherwise crack into the 2nd and keep if I need to top off. With the T1's you should be fine.

911tracker85

I have recently been finding the above true. at least for me. some will disagree. my car is around 2800lb.

I have been tracking my 85 911 for almost 10 yrs. now has a lot of upgrades, including upgrading the FRONT calipers to Boxster 4 piston, front cooling ducts, and R compound tires.

as my skills have inproved I am trying to learn to brake more aggressively.

a critical issue I am struggling with is consistently braking the correct way on the track. if you do not, you will over heat the brakes. that is what I have been experiencing.

I will not derail this thread like I have others recently.

in the process of planning extensive 'maintenance' on my brake system this winter. cannot afford a full 930 upgrade at this point.

I have been using pagid blue and ATE super blue for several years. I hear good things about Motul. and the ultimate seems to be castrol SRF at $70 qt.

to fully flush I use a full qt. to bleed I use about 1 pt.

MUSSBERGER

Good quality fresh fluid (super blue or better), good calipers, plenty of pad thickness, (97's)and check your brake lines. You'll be fine. If after that they get mushy you braking too much.

BTW double check your sway bar mounts and checking your suspension and halfshaft fasteners ain't a bad thing either. It is Sebring. Love that place!

g-50cab

Unfortunately Bob - with Boxster calipers on stock carrera disks - you have done little to upgrade your brakes (other than the 4 piston calipers) to upgrade your brakes - you need to upgrade the thermal capacity of your system and that involves rotor mass. You either go wider, or bigger rotors - cooling ducts help - but in my very limited experience - depending on the track, once you make the move to either more HP or wider wheels or r compound tires, or a combination of any of these, you will start stressing stock Carrera brakes.

So you either loose weight, or go with an SRF style fluid, and aggressive pad and plan on consistently rebuilding your calipers - or do an upgrade. Sebring is a fast track and tough on brakes.

Ed Hughes

Don't even waste the time and money with Ate, as Jeremy says Motul is great. Not real expensive. I can get a flush with a pint (actually a 1/2 liter IIRC) if I'm careful. I do this at least 3 times a year.

Also as stated, it is about the rotor size coupled with pad area. If you can't dissipate the heat out of the rotors, you'll cook your fluid no matter how much pad surface area you have.

rusnak

check out Steve Wiener's website http://www.rennsportsystems.com/2c.html

sig_a

g 50cab says

"....once you make the move to either more HP or wider wheels or r compound tires, or a combination of any of these, you will start stressing stock Carrera brakes."
-----------------
You make a good point.

As compared to stock Fuchs, a heavier/wider/larger wheel and tire set has an unsprung weight multiplier effect impairing the handling and braking advantage of larger r compound tires. IMHO, the stock Carrera brake system is highly effective especially with better brake fluid and pads. Additionally, lighter than stock 15 inch wheel-tire combination can yield superior corner stability and better braking without heavier brakes. See Hoosier R6 275 35 15 for example.

911tracker85

ahh... a fully engaged religious war is breaking out. excellent

but seriously. I put on the boxster front calipers a number of years ago before I really understood much about brakes or braking on the track. seemed like a good idea at the time. I know a few others who have boxster front calipers and seem happy with the setup, one an instructor I respect.

but the issue I keep struggling with in these exchanges is "are stock carerra brakes really up to hard track use?" in particular DE and as skills improve.

so you use ATE or Motul, more agressive track pads, cooling ducts, am I missing any other basics?

the $64,000 question, actually about $5k for a full set of 930 brakes, is "when do you really need to upgrade".

I am reaching the conclusion at some point you do reach a limit on what you can get out of stock carrera brakes. I just don't have the funds for a big brake system, yet. and struggle with the question if I ever will need them by staying in DE.

from asking around, I get the impression if you go into club racing and are in a stock class that requres you keep the stock brakes, they have to 'manage' their brake use to avoid cooking them.

now that I have throw down the guantlett......

911tracker85

I forgot to acknowledge g-50cab actually ansered my question.

are there any discenting opinions? or additional thing you can do to the stock system?

I ask to validate his opinion as I do encounter some who do not think you ever need to upgrade if you are just doing DE.

I plan to do a full refersh on my brakes this winter, buying time to save up for a 930 set.

MUSSBERGER

Talk to some of the local D and E class guys about what they do. There are some really fast guys out there that really know their $hit. There are a lot of caliper rebuilds between events. Since I already have 930 brakes on my car (which is a anomaly in E) I can only relate what I have observed.

Ed Hughes

I'd say that DE is appropriate to upgrade brakes for, when you get faster and require more stop and less soft pedal. if you start running with faster groups and newer or improved cars, the stock brakes may be over-taxed. I don't even think about brakes any more. Pads and rotors last forever too. I think my brakes were one of the best projects I ever did.

Club racing is different, and if that is what you'll do, you may get stuck with stock brakes. I'd say $5k for a brake upgrade is extremely high. I maybe spent $1k on a set of 993 calipers and another $1500 rebuilding them, new 23mm m/c, adaptors, hats and rotors. $3k max. There are other Porsche braking options besides a true "930" system.

sig_a

[QUOTE=911tracker85;7961596]ahh... a fully engaged religious war is breaking out. excellent

rabble-rouser