Gmund48

I am throwing this out for comment:

An experience
I recently answered an Ad for a 911 S that was complete but had been stored for a while, I sent a deposit and had someone look at the car ( and paid a PCA member ) to give the car a good looking at. The "Broker" for the owner said there had been some engine work but the red shroud, fuel injection, etc was in place. After the initial visual onceover I was asked to forward more payment and did so, upon that receipt I had the car sent to a local Porsche Mechanic to fully check it out. It was to be transported across the country so It would be less expensive to have it be in running condition. Within a day I recieved a call from the mechanic that the car has a "T" Motor. We verified this then called the "broker" who says that the motor swap doesnt make the car a "NON-S" car. I can quote everyone that in that year you can order a T with all S options except the Motor.

The seller is in the position they did nothing wrong that it is an "S" 9 even witha T engine. I have spent a ton of time and money putting this togeather and since I have already purchased several Items for the car, I requested a significant refund for it having a "T" Motor. I didnt steal the car I payed by all accounts a fair price based on condition/needs and determined from all reliable sources.

I have retained my corporate laywer to pursue as being misled is not something I take kindly too. I really want a fair refund for the T engine being there instead of the "S"
how much do you think that would be and should I continue to pursue ??

There has always been an ethical bond between sports car guys especially since this was advertised on an enthusiast site specifically as an "S"

Thanks


An early "S" fan

Chris Bennet

I agree with you that a "T" with the "S" appearance option is not an "S". In my mind this is the same as selling a Turbo-look car as a Turbo.
Does the VIN # show it as an "S"?
-Chris

Gmund48

VIN is a n "S"yet the original engine has been replaced with a T and the red shroud was put back in place then represented as an "S" CAR, No mention of a T motor.

Paul Brewer

A nice "S" in excellent condition should be almost double the price of a "T" so depending on what you paid you should be looking at a big rebate.

soterik

A lot of factors need to be included to get to a number....including whether the T engine has been rebuilt to S specs...

I would think that a "rough" number would be in the 25% to 30% area, but that could be high...as recent "over the top" examples of T's and E's are bringing excellent money...

You "do" have an original S chassis, and in the Early S Registry, that's what validates the car, not the engine (many members feel that the engine is as important as the chassis....).

Tell us more about the car, and perhaps we can give you a better number.

regards,
Eric
67S
69S with 2.7
71E

richard glickel

This may be an oversimplification but, if the car doesn't have an "S" engine, it'snot an "S". I don't know if this is an example in the extreme, but if you put a 1.8 L engine into what had been a 914-6, the car would cease to be a 914-6.

Making the car appear to have an "S" engine after the engine had been replaced with a T, is fraud (that's 26 years of legal experience, not car knowledge talking).

Unless this car is great in all other respects so that you'd feel like holding on to it, I'd void the deal and demand my money back. Yeh, I'd sue 'em.

Good luck.

Richard
'87 Carrera

Berkley

If you are dealing with an out of state situation, the legal route will likely be expensive, lengthy and unproductive. In my opinion you have been defrauded by the seller and his broker, but it may be smart to put the ethics/emotions aside in favor of a business approach.

First, what do you want? Keep the car or return it... If you don't want the car, then you or your lawyer might offer to return the car at your expense in exchange for a full refund of the purchase price( along with a mutual release of liability ). However, if you want to keep the car, I think it will be tough to recover anything.... in light of your accounting of the seller and broker's position on authenticity. At the end of the day time is money.... you might consider just putting this behind you.

I've lost money in venture deals where there were misrepresentations, but always in looking back, I had ignored the warning signs or had wanted the deal to bad.

Good Luck

Don in Redondo

>I sent a deposit and had someone look at the car ( and paid a PCA member ) to give the car a good looking at<

What the heck were these two looking at? What were your instructions to these two people that initially looked the car over? I hope they included an item to make sure that the engine and chassis numbers matched!

I am not bringing this up to say that this shortsight absolves the seller of all responsibility for full disclosure, but is a basic fundamental step in purchasing P. cars in the used market........buyer beware, take reasonable steps to insure that you are getting what you paid for. You obviously missed a fundamental step in this process, and will most likely end up having to pay for it (lack of satisfaction, value, time, money, and effort spent). On the positive side, I will bet that you will never make this mistake again, in any big ticket item purchase that you make in the future. Sorry about you painfull experience, but you are treading in shark infested waters, almost as bad as antique art, furniture, and firearm markets......buyer beware.

What year and how much did you pay for it?

richard glickel

Esport,

This isn't your fault at all. Caveat emptor inapplicable in those instances where the seller has actively defrauded the purchaser. For example, where a purchaser has conducted his own inspection, the decision to purchase is not premised in reliance upon the seller's representations (or, misrepresentations); absent reliance, there is no actionable fraud.

But, where the seller has attempted to cover-up or hide a defect, as in making the engine compartment appear to house an "S" engine, the purchaser's "due diligence" is effectively thrwarted. In such cases "buyer beware" is meaningless.

If a quick peek at the engine would have revealed that it was a "T" and not an "S", then I would say you have a problem. On the other hand, if the engine was made to appear as though it was an "S", you've been defrauded.

Sure, you can try to get your money back without litigating the issue in the first instance. That's always the first step. I'm presuming you're beyond that point and must take legal action.

Richard
'87 Carrera

richard glickel

Gmund48,

Sorry I addressed my last reply to you as "Esport". I had just read Eurosport's post before re-reading yours. There is no similarity between your respective problems (his being mechanical, and yours being ethical in nature).

Richard
'87 Carrera