DUCK TAIL vs WHALE TAIL vs TURBO TAIL
06-10-2002, 11:34 AM
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DUCK TAIL vs WHALE TAIL vs TURBO TAIL
sigh... im gonna paint my car i think, and i have always strangley been attracted to the retro ducktail. saw one on a car the other day and though it was waaaaaaaay cool. I need some high speed stability, will this work, or do i really need the carrera tail. ALSO, on ebay i saw an entorely rubber mountable piece, will this work at all? looks kinda cheap do ya think? please advise on wetehr i should get a duck tail, a carrera tail, cheap rubber tail or what... opinions welcome...incidentally, its a targa....85
06-10-2002, 09:01 PM
#2
Get whichever one you like the looks of the most. Any will reduce lift at the rear, just make sure you add a front lip spoiler if you don't already have one.
The rubber spoiler may be an original from the mid seventies, one of the Bill's has one, Bill Verburg, I think. It looks good. Personally I like the old style whaletail (the original turbo tail) or the Carrera tail and I don't care for the later model turbo tails on narrow body cars.
The rubber spoiler may be an original from the mid seventies, one of the Bill's has one, Bill Verburg, I think. It looks good. Personally I like the old style whaletail (the original turbo tail) or the Carrera tail and I don't care for the later model turbo tails on narrow body cars.
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Superdave312 (07-20-2020)
06-11-2002, 10:54 AM
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If looks are what is motivating the need for the tail, as Stephen said, any of them will do, and of course add the front rubber valance extension, for aerodynamic balance front/rear. The Turbo tail provides more lift reduction than the Carrera tail which does more than the duck tail, if actual aerodynamic impact is important.
06-11-2002, 03:05 PM
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How about the Turbo tail versus IROC?
<a href="http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads/1224-M.jpg" target="_blank">
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I have both, but like the look of the IROC tail better. Am I throwing away dowforce (I know, 'reduced lift')?
<a href="http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads/1224-M.jpg" target="_blank">
</a> I have both, but like the look of the IROC tail better. Am I throwing away dowforce (I know, 'reduced lift')?
06-12-2002, 01:28 PM
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Hi
Well, I personally like the pure lines - no spoiler.
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Having said this, I wonder how much the lack of a tail affects my ride - uhmmmm...
btw. Bill: how did you upload the picture for your avatar - that is your own photo, right?
cheers
Well, I personally like the pure lines - no spoiler.
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Having said this, I wonder how much the lack of a tail affects my ride - uhmmmm...
btw. Bill: how did you upload the picture for your avatar - that is your own photo, right?
cheers
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Superdave312 (07-20-2020)
06-12-2002, 03:09 PM
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[quote]<strong>how did you upload the picture for your avatar - that is your own photo, right?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I uploaded the picture to my Rennlist member website, then sent John Dunkle a note asking him to make that an avatar. You could probably send him a file, too. He does his magic, then you go into where you choose an avatar and choose custom and voila! And yes, 'tis mine.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I uploaded the picture to my Rennlist member website, then sent John Dunkle a note asking him to make that an avatar. You could probably send him a file, too. He does his magic, then you go into where you choose an avatar and choose custom and voila! And yes, 'tis mine.
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06-12-2002, 03:16 PM
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[quote]<strong> Am I throwing away dowforce (I know, 'reduced lift')?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Interestingly, Paul Frere reports in his book that the Turbo tail actually crosses the 'reduced lift' line and creates a bit of downforce. I'm not an engineer, nor do I play one on television, but I wonder if the raised sides on the Turbo tail help keep the air from flowing so easily over the sides, to increase it's function?
Interestingly, Paul Frere reports in his book that the Turbo tail actually crosses the 'reduced lift' line and creates a bit of downforce. I'm not an engineer, nor do I play one on television, but I wonder if the raised sides on the Turbo tail help keep the air from flowing so easily over the sides, to increase it's function?
06-12-2002, 08:37 PM
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Much like the aero principles behind the windsplits on the front of the Kremer K3- by "holding" the air on the flat surface longer before it spills off the edges, greater pressure is generated i.e. greater 'negative lift' which is another grevious misnomer (may my flight instructors forgive me)-- the "Tea Tray Tail" with the 4" or so lip holds the air in longer which accounts for its actual generation of 'downforce' vs. reduction of lift.
So, I talked to Hank Godfredson at GT racing, and he told me that an IROC tail, with a "wicker vane" which is a piece of plexiglass about 3" high screwed to the rear of the tail and sticking up in a vertical position would generate something like 300# of downforce at the rear.
Jack, I like the second grill, does it connect to the fan through an air plenum like the factory one did? A buddy of mine had one of those on his SC, and with the car stationary, the negative pressure generated by running the engine was enough to suck a piece of paper down to the grill. Gotta help with cooling big time.
So, aesthetically speaking, for an '85 targa I would go with a fiberglass or carbon version of the "Carrera" tail- I think the "tea tray" from the 930 looks out-of-place against the narrow body. If you can get a factory steel/rubber tail, that's fine, but these are expensive and heavy with weight above the CG. For deception purposes you can paint the outer lip of the spoiler black and from 5' none will be the wiser. Only reason the factory went with rubber was concern over the impact (no pun intended) that the tail would have on a pedestrian, the same reason the "Burzel" was never offered for sale in Germany!
So, I talked to Hank Godfredson at GT racing, and he told me that an IROC tail, with a "wicker vane" which is a piece of plexiglass about 3" high screwed to the rear of the tail and sticking up in a vertical position would generate something like 300# of downforce at the rear.
Jack, I like the second grill, does it connect to the fan through an air plenum like the factory one did? A buddy of mine had one of those on his SC, and with the car stationary, the negative pressure generated by running the engine was enough to suck a piece of paper down to the grill. Gotta help with cooling big time.
So, aesthetically speaking, for an '85 targa I would go with a fiberglass or carbon version of the "Carrera" tail- I think the "tea tray" from the 930 looks out-of-place against the narrow body. If you can get a factory steel/rubber tail, that's fine, but these are expensive and heavy with weight above the CG. For deception purposes you can paint the outer lip of the spoiler black and from 5' none will be the wiser. Only reason the factory went with rubber was concern over the impact (no pun intended) that the tail would have on a pedestrian, the same reason the "Burzel" was never offered for sale in Germany!
06-12-2002, 09:27 PM
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[quote]<strong>I would go with a fiberglass or carbon version of the "Carrera" tail</strong><hr></blockquote>
On my SC, I installed a fiberglass Carrera tail from MA Shaw in CA. Fit directly into the grill opening. Mike told me to leave it on for a few days before painting it, however, the black fiberglass looked fine against the white body, so it never got painted! I'll be putting one on my C2, which will get painted, white with black grill area.
On my SC, I installed a fiberglass Carrera tail from MA Shaw in CA. Fit directly into the grill opening. Mike told me to leave it on for a few days before painting it, however, the black fiberglass looked fine against the white body, so it never got painted! I'll be putting one on my C2, which will get painted, white with black grill area.
06-12-2002, 11:38 PM
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Here it is guys, turbo tail on a narrow body car. I used to have a carrera tail since I used to think the turbo tail was overkill on a narrow body car. Then one day, and I don't know why, my mind changed. The turbo tail does provide more dowforce. I have a book that makes an interesting comparison between the early one piece turbo tail, which I really like, and the tea tray tail like on my car. I think tea-tray turbo tails do not work visually on the stock size fuchs, that is what causes an visual imbalance. With turbo fuchs, it works visually. As a matter of fact, the carrera and turbo tail are the same width. Even the rubber pieces are interchangeable between the bases. Look at it this way, at least our cars look good with appendages in the back. Not only that, they are also quite functional as proven by the factory. Unlike the questinable and just ridiculous contraptions in the back of some of those rice burners we unfortunately see on a daily basis.
06-15-2002, 07:59 AM
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[quote]Originally posted by Ed Bighi:
<strong>Here it is guys, turbo tail on a narrow body car. I used to have a carrera tail since I used to think the turbo tail was overkill on a narrow body car. Then one day, and I don't know why, my mind changed. The turbo tail does provide more dowforce. I have a book that makes an interesting comparison between the early one piece turbo tail, which I really like, and the tea tray tail like on my car. I think tea-tray turbo tails do not work visually on the stock size fuchs, that is what causes an visual imbalance. With turbo fuchs, it works visually. As a matter of fact, the carrera and turbo tail are the same width. Even the rubber pieces are interchangeable between the bases. Look at it this way, at least our cars look good with appendages in the back. Not only that, they are also quite functional as proven by the factory. Unlike the questinable and just ridiculous contraptions in the back of some of those rice burners we unfortunately see on a daily basis.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Thanks for the pic! I'm planning on a turbo setuo for my narrow body car and was wondering about the look of the turbo tail on it.
<strong>Here it is guys, turbo tail on a narrow body car. I used to have a carrera tail since I used to think the turbo tail was overkill on a narrow body car. Then one day, and I don't know why, my mind changed. The turbo tail does provide more dowforce. I have a book that makes an interesting comparison between the early one piece turbo tail, which I really like, and the tea tray tail like on my car. I think tea-tray turbo tails do not work visually on the stock size fuchs, that is what causes an visual imbalance. With turbo fuchs, it works visually. As a matter of fact, the carrera and turbo tail are the same width. Even the rubber pieces are interchangeable between the bases. Look at it this way, at least our cars look good with appendages in the back. Not only that, they are also quite functional as proven by the factory. Unlike the questinable and just ridiculous contraptions in the back of some of those rice burners we unfortunately see on a daily basis.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Thanks for the pic! I'm planning on a turbo setuo for my narrow body car and was wondering about the look of the turbo tail on it.
06-15-2002, 06:31 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bill Gregory:
[QB]
On my SC, I installed a fiberglass Carrera tail from MA Shaw in CA. Fit directly into the grill opening.
Do they have a website?
How much hassle was the installation - I am looking for a spoiler that I can bolt on for the track but take off in between. I like the smooth look, and while I have considered a 964 decklid, I want to retain the AC.
[QB]
On my SC, I installed a fiberglass Carrera tail from MA Shaw in CA. Fit directly into the grill opening.
Do they have a website?
How much hassle was the installation - I am looking for a spoiler that I can bolt on for the track but take off in between. I like the smooth look, and while I have considered a 964 decklid, I want to retain the AC.
06-16-2002, 12:08 AM
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[quote]<strong>[QUOTE]Do they have a website?
How much hassle was the installation - I am looking for a spoiler that I can bolt on for the track but take off in between. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Bob,
To install the MA Shaw tail, I had to drill 5 holes in the tail where the original bolts hold the black grill. Just the tail needed the holes drilled. Since I was planning on painting it, I used duct tape on the fiberglass so the fiberglass wouldn't rest directly on the paint. You couldn't see the tape when the tail was installed. I did have to remove the "911SC" emblem, and it was on my to-do list to reinstall it a little lower in the hood.
You can remove it easily and reinstall the black grill. However, if you are going to use a tail, you need to use the rubber valance extension on the front, for aerodynamic balance. If you remove the tail, you will still have the rubber valance extension on the front, which by itself will, at speed, add to rear end lift - not a good situation.
Mike's web site is <a href="http://www.mashaw.com." target="_blank">www.mashaw.com.</a> You'll get a better view of his product line in Excellence magazine.
How much hassle was the installation - I am looking for a spoiler that I can bolt on for the track but take off in between. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Bob,
To install the MA Shaw tail, I had to drill 5 holes in the tail where the original bolts hold the black grill. Just the tail needed the holes drilled. Since I was planning on painting it, I used duct tape on the fiberglass so the fiberglass wouldn't rest directly on the paint. You couldn't see the tape when the tail was installed. I did have to remove the "911SC" emblem, and it was on my to-do list to reinstall it a little lower in the hood.
You can remove it easily and reinstall the black grill. However, if you are going to use a tail, you need to use the rubber valance extension on the front, for aerodynamic balance. If you remove the tail, you will still have the rubber valance extension on the front, which by itself will, at speed, add to rear end lift - not a good situation.
Mike's web site is <a href="http://www.mashaw.com." target="_blank">www.mashaw.com.</a> You'll get a better view of his product line in Excellence magazine.
