Carlos

Guess what Steve, My 928 is undefeated against 911's. Your 930 might have a chance but don't count on it if it's stock. NO TURBO, NO CHANCE. Reality, it is a bitch.

Ed Ruiz

There are many reasons why Porsche did not campain the 928 as a factory race car. (BTW, have they raced any Boxsters?) The main reason was that the 928 was to be their autobahn cruiser competing with the MB SL and the 600 or 700 BMW series. That's why about 70% of all 928s are Automatics.

Another reason they did not race it has to do with preserving the 911 image. Heaven forbid if a factory 928 should ever beat a factory 911. Porsche would never hear the end of it.

Considering that it is about 500 pounds heavier than a stock 911 of the same year, it should not be as nimble. Yet, some 928 drivers are embarassing some 911 drivers at DE and TT events.

Mark Anderson, in his 88 928S4, is doing an admirable job keeping up with much younger cars (with more advanced suspensions and engine management systems) with much bigger racing budgets. Also, they loaded him down with about 200# of balast just to make sure he doesn't embarass the front runners.

When I do DE events at not-too-tight courses, there isn't a stock 911 or 944 or 951 that can keep up with my stock 928GT. On the street, it's no contest. I even smoke an occasional 930 just for the heck of it. YMMV.

BTW, the 928 was Dr. Ferry Porsche's favorite, even though his Son designed the 911. Go figure.

Bottom line, FEWC, MEAC, MEWC REAC, or REWC, if it's got a Porsche badge on it somewhere - it's a Porsche. If you like 911s - great, so do I. I just happen to like 928s better. "Differnet strokes, for different folks."

CamB

Can't and would never overcome - it sounds cool!

richard glickel

Paul,

Somewhere, about a week ago, we all forgot about your problem and embarked upon the air/water-cooled debate that 911/928 affecionados enjoy riding each other about.

I think you can get a Porsche that will carry two golf bags and your wife will also be able to drive. It will cost alittle more than an SC or a vintage 928, but a 968 is a relatively rare Porsche. Faster than an older 911, less complex (and less costly to maintain) than a 928.

Be prepared to spend from the upper teens to the upper 20's for a decent car w/ tiptronic. If your wife can learn to drive a 6-speed, so much the better - compared to an SC, a 968 6-speed is easy to shift and drive (power assisted steering).

Good luck

Richard
'87 Carrera

Ed Bighi

This bickering has to end. I have owned every type of Porsche with the exception of the 356. Yes I have owned 928s and still own the 911 I have had for about 10 years. Both are great. I think the 944 turbo is great and actually liked it more than the 928. But that is just my opinion. If speed was everything, my sister would have kept her 3 rotor twin turbo rx7 with every trick in the book. Or my cousin his 1800 pound cobra replica with a 351 cleveland. They are both 911 drivers now and extremely happy. My sister solved the ac problem by putting in a condenser that extends accross the width of the car underneath. Cold as a freezer now. And any car can be made super fast. Just last week I drove a 580hp mr2. If speed was everything, why would we be confined to Porsches since we can modify almost anything for probably less money. Certainly there are souped up Supras that can tear *** on almost anything. You drive something because it thrills your senses, because you like the way it looks, or challenges you, etc... I personally drive the 911 because I can do things with it that very few people can in their 911s. Even in snow. Yes it takes years of practice to truly tame one to a point that you can drive it at 11/10th's on a track in any kind of weather. By its inherently unforgiving nature, the 911 has taught me to do things no other car could have, while in turn making me a more accomplished driver. My car is actually set up to have more oversteer than usual, and zero understeer. Any other car does not challenge me like the 911 does. And that "oh but my car is so fast that...." Let me tell you, Just last month I hopped in a 928 gts, then a modified 964 turbo s and later a 72 911s. The 72 was the most exciting by far. No, the fastest car is not the most exciting car. If that were true there would be no vintage racing. And I am quite sure that if I could afford to race a Bugatti Type 35 or an old Bentley Speed 6, I probably would never race anything else. Another reson I drive a 911 instead of the 928's and 944's I used to own, is because I find that a good 911 driver makes an excellent "everything else" driver. And a good "everything else" driver makes a fair 911 driver. Not always but more often than not, very true. As a matter of fact, being an instructor, I find that most 911 drivers barely know the limits of their car yet. Even after years of driving them. When someone really tames a 911, the so called "handling defficiencies" start to become advantages. Just read up on the old Lotus 49 and one can understand. So judging a 911 by its performance during a driver's ed is trivial at best. You see, to probe the limits of a 944 turbo or a 928 is quite simple. I can esily instruct someone to max out with a 944 on a track. But with a 911, I am challenged as an instructor. It is a car that requires almost twice as much skill and cojones as any other car to drive flat out. Like they say, "the 911 divided the world into those that could drive and the rest." After having owned almost every model Porsche made since 77, I find that statement quite true. So lets stop this speed bragging, or we are going to start looking like a bunch of unskilled Viper drivers.

Carlos

Well Ed, you better hurry and inform the BMW team. They seem to be unimpressed with these escoteric charateristics. And as for the cojones issue, how does that work exactly? Are you saying that anly those w/ large cojones can drive a 911 well or does learning to drive a 911 well induce growth? Please clear this up as women in particular will be highly interesed. If the latter is true, men, keep your women from behind the wheel of your 911. Gross disformaties may result.

PS If you want something REALLY exciting to drive, get a '69 beetle with bald tires and take that baby out on a rainy day. Unmatched pucker factor.

86Coupe

I think the so called esoteric advantages that the 911 has have been well documented in this string. These are being posted to help someone considering a 911 understand that there are additional emotional advantages that this car has over any other car, advantages that come out only after owning.

Anyone can appreciate the styling and wonderful sound of the 911 motor. But the handling, unique power delivery and other advantges that come from a lightweight design have to be experienced to be appreciated. High resale values are a testment that all of this is a true.

It's too bad in this case the 911 is being compared to the 928, a car many of us respect and like. ANY car would fall short of the 911 so this is nothing personal against you 928 owners.

There is one very clear rational, tangible advantage that the 911 has over the 928, for those of you like Paul who are considering the 911 and something else. Like the things Ed mentions you need experience with the 911 for the following to come out. OK here it is...

There is no car bar none that can perform as well as a stock 911 can in autocross or on a track. Only in the 911 can you drive to one of these events, compete and drive home in the same exact car that you will be driving to work on Monday morning. No punishing ride, no cramped interior, no rough idle, no modification expense.

I'm sure a hopped up 928 can be made to perform well. Heck I can buy a used Vette, spend $3-5K on mods and have a fast if not very enjoyable track car that could clobber a 928, all at a total cost of under $25K.

I think cars that need a lot of money spent on them to perform well at the track then end up compromised aren't very special.

If you were to take a stock 928 to any of these events you'd be looking at overheated brakes, ruined tires and possible engine damage from overheating and lack of lubrication. One time out at the track could end up costing the owner over $1,000 in repairs!

A 911 competing in similar conditions would require a car wash.

A breakthrough layout and design, careful and continuous refinement over 20 years, LIGHT WEIGHT and a focus on maintianing the purity of the original give the 911 enormous emotional appeal and unmatched competance that make it superior to just about any car IMHO.

Carlos

And I guess a 911 makes a better limo than a Rolls Royce too! Don't try a S2000 on one of those tight little autocross tracks. You'll go home sick. What the hell are you talking about with 928 brakes? Every year it was made it got the best brakes in the Porsche lineup. Wait, let me guess. They work better when installed on a 911. As far as the "bulletproof" theory you espouse, it's crap. Read this damn board. It's full of people trying to solve problems. Apparently in addition to the added benfit of gonad enlargement mentioned earlier, diving a 911 produces an euphoric effect akin to a CRACK PIPE.

86Coupe

Actually the 911 does produce an euphoric effect akin to a smoking crack pipe that's the whole point!!! We're trying to help this guy realize that before buying something else.

As for the 928 brakes the point there isn't about the hardware, I'm sure it's good. The point is that those brakes combined with 3,600lbs+ don't perform very well unmodified from stock (I won't get into things like brake fluid boiling). In the 1,000lb lighter 911 they're awesome, can go from street -> track -> street same day.

If you're going to tell me your car doesn't weigh 3,600lbs any more because you gutted the interior then all I can say is that you don't need to do that in a 911. Street -> track -> street.

I forgot to add another tangible advantage... 911s routinely get 18mpg city and 25mpg highway. Combined with the 20gal tank and the range is huge. Like I said it only needs a car wash after the track or autocross, plenty of fuel still left.

I own a 3.2 Coupe and believe me it is bullet proof if well maintained. The 964s are a whole nuther story based on what I've read. SCs appear to be the most bullet proof of all. Doesn't mean little things won't go wrong, means the big, expensive stuff doesn't break and doesn't need constant tinkering.

I don't own a 928 and never have but from what I've been able to learn parts are much more expensive and labor rates are much higher because the 928s are so complicated. If you're not a mechanic there is financial risk hence the relatively low resale values (964 suffer from that condition as well).

911s aren't perfect though. They are not very good cars to drive in bumper to bumper traffic. The engine gets hot and the a/c isn't very good.

I hope the constructive input that some of us are providing will help others to choose a 911. Comments about battery acid damage and poor a/c don't really begin to tell the story IMHO hence the additional posts from me and others.

Carlos

My S4 w? A/C weighs 34 & change. If you think a street 911 weighs 1000 lbs less than that you're on the crack pipe! Many 928 drivers go steet, track, street on the same day. If I understand you correctly, 928 parts are expensive, unlike those bargain priced 911 parts? See above comment on crack pipe. Cheap Porsche parts = jumbo shrimp. Gas milage, you've got me one or two mpg. I'll think about that while I drive by your miserable sweaty *** in traffic on a hot summer day.

Bullet proof? If you don't count rod bolts, chain tensioners, valve guides, etc. Oh did I forget to mention that 928 motors commonly go 300K miles. Yours can too on about two rebuilds.

Last but not least I'll quote Ed Ruiz, "the 928 was Dr. Porsche's favorite car." But hell, what did he know!

Chris W

Did someone here say a stock 911 was going to take a stock 928 at a track? Are we talking the same model year car? I am sure there are some tracks that would suit the Stock 911 over the Stock 928 and the same is true for the 928 on other tracks. I drive an 89 S-4 A/T and the track I normally drive is the street and the last 911 I raced was a (stunning) 993 RS. To put it lightly it was a close race from 60 to 100 mph but @ 120 I slowed down because it was getting harder to see the front of his car from my rear view mirror. Maybe at Sears Point it would have been different, but it wasn't. I think if the car was an 89 911 it would have done much worse, excepting of course the turbo.

ked

why do so many people point to a single event & furhter confuse the performance of a car with the behavior / talent of the driver? as to the many posts from 928 enthusiasts here, long after Paul has bought his 928, I can only recall Shakespeare (Macbeth, I believe)... "... the lady doth protesteth too much..."

Carlos

As I said Chris, NO TURBO, NO HOPE. Reality, sometimes it's a bitch.
And we don't have to deal with that annoying gonad growth problem.

Ed Ruiz

Where do I begin. First off, at nearly every DE I've ever attended there hasn't been a stock 911 that can keep up with me. That includes the turns.

Also, at the end of the DE day, I just get in and drive straight home, then drive it daily to and from work, rain or shine or even light snow. During winter, I rarely see a single 911 being driven, but besides mine, I do see an occasional 928.

In spite of carrying about 3550+ pounds, my GT will out-brake any stock 911 of the same age or older. (The S4 brakes worked wonders. Why they didn't use them on their entire production line is a mystery.) Since the installation of GTS calipers, the GT has yet to exhibit any brake fade.

At autocrosses, I routinely finish among the top 15 or so. In my class, the GT does well and has actually placed fairly well. It has even won a FTD at a particular autocross last year that was well attended by 911s, 914s, 924s, 930s, 944s, 951s, 964s, 968s, and Boxsters. At another it placed second overall and was only beatten by a well prepared 2000 996.

As far as the cost of parts, they were once higher and less abundant than they are now. I would say that the price differential is insignificant. Moreover, the critical parts on 928s are generally more robust than their 911 counterparts. Thus, they tend to cost a bit more, but they also tend to last a bit longer.

The repair rates for all Porsches is exactly the same. It doesn't matter if you have a 356 or a 996TT or a 928. My mechanic charges $68/hour for any car. Some repair jobs take longer for a 928 than a 911, but others take less time. For example; The clutch on a 928 can be replaced in less than two hours (and the engine need not come out). The 928 valves NEVER have to be adjusted. Also, my garage has no oil stains, how about yours?

Bottom line; "Different strokes for different folks." Drive what you like and enjoy the fact that Porsche did have some diversity that allowed others to drive what they like.

Chris W

Kevin you get 5 stars for your reply... touche!