Steve, 914 guy

I went to the POC race at Laguna Seca yesterday, Mark Anderson of 928's International took 1st place overall in his white 928 that you may have seen on Speedvision.

ked

That's a very impressive achievement - I wonder how many $$$s went into that 928, including NRE? Not that it really matters, since there is alot to be said for "victory (or perfection) independent of cost".

I have always been impressed with the 928, particularly the last lot; 928GT-5sp (about $80K, weren't they?). However, for those with an affinity for light, responsive & dynamic sports cars, I think the 911 & 944 / 968 are more appealing to drive.

I always respected a nice Corvette (Sting Rays & the current models anyway) & when the 928 came out I viewed it as "Porsche executes the Corvette as a Euro GT done right". To me, personally, that was no big deal, but it did (and still does) prove a point. The 928 is a GT car that everyone should respect.

Evidently the marketplace, for whatever reasons one may opine, selected the 911 as THE Porsche when a decision had to be made. I am not convinced that Porsche & the economy is big & strong enough to support so many product lines again. One can only hope.

I want Porsche's new product development to continue, I want them to compete w/ BOTH customer production-based and factory sports-prototype endurance racing programs. I want the company to remain independent. Their current management should be carefully scrutinized with these goals in mind, in addition to "profitability" (which should be a given... and is no excuse for a lack of wisdom).

Ed Bighi

Kevin, that bit about Porsche being independent makes sense only until you look at Ferrari. Maybe I am alone in my thinking, but I never thought that either their product line or their image hurt any since the Gianni Agnelli/FIAT takeover. One can even argue that the FIAT takeover of Ferrari was good for the company. Enzo thought so. And even after fighting to keep FIAT and Ford at bay, he eventually made the right decision. Think about it, they have plenty of money for R&D, production development etc... Heck, they even had enough money to build a WSC car in the form of the 333sp and never stopped racing F1. They only build sports cars and have the sort of money to use for racing that Porsche will never have even though they produce more cars and now have to prostitute themselves while forever altering their image by building SUV's instead of racing at the top level. As a matter of fact, the sole reason Ferrai does not build mundane grocery getters is because they have all the FIAT money they need. Don't get me wrong, I am a Porsche fanatic who has owned every model Porsche with the exception of the 356 series and 993 and later series, whose every wall in the house has a Porsche poster and a $2,000+ Porsche book collection. But I sincerely think that the independence of Porsche isn't that important. At least as far as the consumer is concerned. Now, as far as the pride of the Porsche family, that is a different story. Just think what a huge influx of money would do. Look at the success the VW/Audi group has achieved with the R8R program and its unlimited funds. It Porsche had that kind of money available to them, it certainly would allow Norbert Singer, Jurgen Barth and Roland Kussmaul to have a field day like they did in the past.

Carlos

Hey Steve, I wish you the same luck when the overflow from the battery rots you floor pan out. But I'm glad to see that you finally admit that there may be people who know more about the 928 than you.

Other points That must be a 78 model 928 you are comparing it to. On the A/C, unless you compare late model 911 to early model 928 there is no comparison. For many years the entire ventilation system on a 911 was a direct decendant of the VW beetle (carry a rag to wipe the windshield off when it rains). If you think the two systems are comparable you must live in North Dakota. At my last PCA function there was one, count 'em again, one, 911 with working air. And it was a georgeous 993tt.

And I for one am glad. Unless the bottom falls out of 993tt resale, I will probably never own one. And that's the only 911 that I'd rather own than a good 928. IMO the lack of any usable ventilation, not to mention A/C plus the significant step down in power are not made up for by incresed "fun to drive." A drive through the mountains in my 928 produces plenty of smiles per gallon.

You sound like you are related to David E. Davis. In the 80's when the cost of both cars soared, Porsche had to rely on yuppie types (getting rich in the market) for sales. These guys didn't know beans about cars. They wanted something that would be recognized as a Porsche. This is when the Porsche driver jokes became popular. In this market, the 911 won.

My 928 is old and far from flawless and I get plenty of "Nice Porsche" comments from average joe's. The lack of recognition by bar bimbos and country club contemporaries is sadly what killed the 928.

But this is much simpler than that. You pick the number, $10k, $15k, $20k, $25k, $30k or whatever. Dollar for dollar, the 928 currently available on the used car market is vastly superior to a comparably priced 911. It doesn't rust, it will be cheaper to maintain, much more comfortable and if you want to drop a few grand on it, capable of smoking all but the very fastest turbos. ADVANTAGE 928

Dave H.

funny you mention that. i was at a drive-in and a couple of 10 year old kids said "hey mister, nice porsche". i asked them if they knew what kind of porshe it was and they replied "no, but it's pretty sweet!" we were about 50 ft from the car.

other people ask if it's a new model since they've never seen one before.

and for the record, i love 911's too. i wouldn't mind one for a daily driver. an 84 SC Targa would do nicely...

Steve, 914 guy

Hey Carlos, my daddy always said the hit dog always barks.

ked

Ed, good analysis & I hope that if Porsche is acquired (& that may be inevitable in any case), the outcome is closer to the Fiat - Ferrari relationship than the Fiat - Alfa one (nice engines & pretty bodies on a Fiat fwd chassis). In reviewing the many acquisitions over the past 15 years, I think that Ferrari may be "the exception that proves the rule".

On the horrible impact of yuppies ruining one's image of purity... News Flash : The auto market is a profit-seeking commercial enterprise. Further News Flash: If it weren't for the increased disposable wealth of the post WW2 baby boom, Porsche would not have built the 928, and no one would have a great selection of heavily depreciated ones to purchase on the "secondary market".

Getting compared to DED (to whom I am NOT related, but have been reading since I could do so) is the nicest thing anyone has said about me today, thanks.

Carlos

Hey Steve, Your dad probably hit that dog when the rusted out floor pan on his 911 let go and the drivers side suspension failed.
If this concept works so well, call Porsche & let them know. The "profit" doesn't seem to have made it's way to Stuttgart.
I'm glad you consider that a compliment.

ked

Carlos, at the moment I think Porsche is doing Very Well, profit-wise. That may be why it is so hard to dislodge the bean-counters from the helm.

I'm not sure about the sincerity of your compliment, but respecting the impact & success of someone's professional career & writing talent doesn't mean one must always agree with the content of their message.

It's kinda like that w/ 911s & 928s... on balance, over here in the Air/Oil Cooled 911 Forum, I think we have all seen a good deal of respect for 928s & our fellow Porsche owners...

Roland Kunz

Hello

There is a big difference Between the P and the F.

F built racecars to win. The streetcars where only made to finance his race team.

P built Sportcars who where also capable to win races. P never did things wich couldnīt be used on streetcars or have influence in street cartechnology.

P also was in F1 competing with F and even as the F Cars had strongest Engine, the disc brake adavantage and the best period driver ( Graf Berge von Trips, the idol from M.S. in fact Trips founded the cart race track from his father ) P managed to have pressure on F and they even won some races.

Porsche never loaned money from outside and allways balanced the shareholdervalue. As he was his own shareholder he investet into development from new technologys and into his people. Just recall that nearly half from the porsche victory race drivers had been Porsche mechanics and donīt needed to win to be a good friend to P. F was completle different using the drivers like slaves exhausting them to the max.

Now todays situation is that Porsche is still a winning team but they are hidden as the costumers paid many money to have there product sold.

Porsche has no financial risk on the deal. They got paid to make the best possible but racing is more then having the best car.

Now Porsche is more then having the "best" car.

People rate best cars by different views. Some need 5 seats and a tow hook. Others need to reach lift off speed on the end from flightcraft carrier runway.

So for most people maybe other cars are the best cars but a Porsche will ( hopefully ) always be a Porsche.
A Porsche is never the best car, it is allways the best mix and the most intelligent car to choose in a wide field of transportation demand. This car covers everything from everyday grocery geting to the race track and can make points in every situation.

Porsche never was interesstet into saleing supercars. Porsche is still a peoples car. OK for the more car fanatic people.

The 928 and the 911 are not to compare. When the 928 was startet it startet on a complete white sheet and Porsche said " We make a new Landmark with the best aviable today and enough reserves for the future, a showpiece from weissach engenieering starting in the new weissach branch" ( huts back then ).

Back then the marked showed the way and the americans wantet a V8 as every serious sportscar must have a V8. They also wantet more space inside and better creature comforts. But the car should also be capable to represent Porsche on the racetrack.

This all is the 928.

The big mistake was made by Fuhrmann in the 70īs. As the 928 was his child and he knew that the 911 was a platform who was to expensive to manufacture over coming limits. ( Fuhrmann developet the 911 Turbo and pushed it trough against the bean counters, beting his own "life" on the succes from the car )
He tried to push the traditional Porsche driver ( Gusseiserne ) behind the 928 wheels even if they didnīt needed the 928. He didnīt focused on capturing on the other companys. But the 928 still pulled Mercedes, BMW, Jaguar, Ferrari Drivers behind there wheel. Those people never liked the 911 but could arrange themself with a 928.

Those people are not the traditional Porsche costumer and replaced the cars sooner and always skiped to other marques as they could have similar power for the same or lower money but never understand or needed the lurking power inside. The 928 is overengenieered for the fashinable costumer.

There had been enough sales to keep the 928 runing but with the droping US sales ( The land the car was made for ) the car runed from the even level to the give away sector and so Porsche stoped it for very simple financial caused reasons. The last evolution would had been a other upgrade but they decided to make the 993 TT and also capture the 928 drivers with the 996.

If you try to find a equal car you have to look at a Aston Martin DBS. Aston Martin also had the same "problems" and also focused on the US marked. But there design was less radical and there engenieering was mainly focused on old technology.

OK most people here never had driven a Aston Martin or even know more then there "little" 911.

The 911 vs 928 debatte is like asking wich T-Bird is better, the early 55 or the high power 69 ? Then ask a 55 driver and a 69 driver witch T-Bird is the best. Maybe you will take a 59 then ?

Or ask for the best 911 MY.

But a 911 and a 928 are so different only sharing the Porsche engenieering but influenced from different periods so this is a simple question allready decided by peoples choice. The 996 is a fusion from both. Maybe forced by modern times as a raw 911 will not sale on the new car marked and also will not pass modern requirements.

Grüsse

Ed Ruiz

I never said I didn't like 911s. On the contrary, I agree that they are great. I just happen to like 928s better. (I like vanilla, but I love chocolate.)

Someone asked about Mark Anderson's 928. His racing budget is a paultry fraction of the budgets of the vast majority of his racing peers. His crew are, for the most part, volunteers.

So far this year he has done fairly well, and would have done much better if a few Corvette drivers would only stop punting him off the track. (I guess Vette brakes are for show, not for slow.)

Steve: Your experience is vastly different from mine. I've only owned 928s for 11+ years, so I really don't know as much about them as you seem to think you know. (You remind me of the aeronutical engineer that could prove mathematically that a bumble bee was too heavy to fly. Apparently, all bumble bees never studied aeronautics.) YMMV.

Ed Bighi

I would like to add one more thing as far as the independence of Porsche as a manufacturer. Yes, Ferrari built street cars to finance top level grand prix racing. So did Colin Chapman by building Elans, Elites, Esprits, Eclats and so on to finance 49's, 78's, etc... Of course Porsche has always built the best car, but F and L cars weren't so bad either. Lotus cars, while not particularly reliable or durable just like their F1 cars, always had the holy grail when it came to handling. And we must never forget Ferrari's 250 series cars that culminated in the GTO. Nobody will argue against that beast. Today it is worth over $10 million. It was a vehicle that could be driven to the track, win the race and be driven back home. Not unlike most Ferraris from the 60's and 70's. And these wonderful and successful street/race cars were actually tools to finance F1. Enzo had a one track mind, and F1 was his goal. But thankfully, his engineers liked every red car built in Modena. Of course, Enzo treated his drivers and engineers like oranges used to make orange juice. Once spent of all their juices, they were better off discarded. Porsche on the other hand, had their engineers and mechanics back up the race team on countless occasions. For example, Peter Falk, Roland Kussmaul, Jurgen Barth, etc... And one can never forget Baron Huschke Von Hanstein. Some say he was faster than most of his drivers. It's stuff like this that makes me enamored with Porsche as a family and then a marque.

But getting back to the subject of finacial independence, there are many reasons for the success of the FIAT buyout of Ferrari. The main one being the fact that Ferrari is the highest point of national pride in Italy. Ferrari is THE Italian car. When alive, Enzo was known to be more powerful than the pope. Maybe even more loved. No red blooded italian, no matter how ignorant or selfish, would ever consider disgracing the company. And certainly not Gianni Agnelli. So FIAT dumped all the money they felt Ferrari needed and said "Forza." It worked.

In comparison, the Lotus buyouts were never successful. There are reasons for these. GM for one, never gave a rat's *** about Lotus's history and everything that came with it. They just used it as an end to a means. The end result being the ZR1 and a few other cars. I remember articles at the time (mid to late 80's) mentioning one of the reasons for the purchase was the fact that Lotus at the time were one of the world leaders in the manufacture and use of fiberglass and other composites. At lest in the automotive field. I have personally seen the result of their fiberglass work while witnessing a couple of Lotus Esprits crash while I was racing. Considering the harshness of the impacts, the damage was very light. Those things are built like boat hulls. They have a very high fiberglass to resin ratio. Great stuff for the time. The other reason of course was their suspension tuning expertise. Even Porsche consulted them once for suspension design.

After GM sucked all it could from Loutus, it dumped it like old undewear. The bastards. Lotus always got screwed in every buyout after that since the companies involved were never british and only saw dollar signs. And at the time no other british company was in a position to do a proper british buyout. And then there is the question of what is the TRUE british manufacturer like Ferrari is in Italy. Some will say Aston Martin, others will say Jaguar, etc...
I'll remember to bring that one up next time I am drinking a beer with fellow enthusiasts. So Lutus has been raped, pillaged and disgraced. Even though I find the current Esprit a rather refreshing car in this world of characterless sports cars built for the masses. Too bad not all manufacturers are starving for cash so that their cars could stay beautiful. Perhaps we should get rid of all the designers and keep the engineers.

And what of Porsche. It isn't like Lotus. There is no doubt what is THE German sports car. As a matter of fact, Porsche is THE sports car manufacturer. Germans take pride in Porsche. And with that idea, I find no single German or German company could ever disgrace Porsche. Never. They would never disgrace Porsche by turning it into an SUV manufacturer(pun). I think that if a company like Audi or Volkswagen, who are part owned by the Porsche family anyway, would never look at Porsche as a way of increasing profits. They would do it to possess the engineering know-how and for the cachet. They would take pride in keeping it pure and alive. Too bad Ferdinand Piech is spending his last years at VW/Audi instead of home at Porsche where he belongs.

Roland Kunz

Hello

Of course Porsche has always built the best car

I donīt like things be paked into bins. There is no best car, as this is a personal view. Maybe there are cars faster then others but would we rate a Formula 1 as the best car becourse it is the fastest transportaition even siting in a LA traffic jam ?

Lotus cars, while not particularly reliable or durable just like their F1 cars

UHWW compared to the british standards in that area the cars could compete with Triumph & Co. Donīt forget that Lotus used to sale Kitcars to save the owners the VAT and that most cars where used on the double purpose racetrack/comuting.

For example the Lotus Elan could outhandle a 911 even having only half the power. So the only wheapon to fight a Elan is maybe a 904 with also wasnīt a perfect made car ( But the car impressed Chapmann for sure )

But getting back to the subject of finacial independence, there are many reasons for the success of the FIAT buyout of Ferrari. The main one being the fact that Ferrari is the highest point of national pride in Italy. Ferrari is THE Italian car. When alive, Enzo was known to be more powerful than the pope. Maybe even more loved. No red blooded italian, no matter how ignorant or selfish, would ever consider disgracing the company. And certainly not Gianni Agnelli. So FIAT dumped all the money they felt Ferrari needed and said "Forza." It worked


OK FIAT didnīt bought Ferrari. Two gentleman made a trade. Agnelli gave F. the money and the back up to stay in the race and Agnelli took over the street car production so F could focus on his main interessts and donīt had to handle with the time consuming and boring money issues.

Sure Agnelli is FIAT and FIAT was one from the largest Industrial companys on the world more then a car manufactorer. They had own steelplants and built nearly all mobile things up to Jet fighters including every part in there. Maybe only Fuji, General Electric, Mitshubishi are comperable.

The Ford offer was a typical american deal.
Badge engenieering.

would never look at Porsche as a way of increasing profits

OHH you are a bit out of this world. Despitee having enough money most family members love money. There is a fine split beeetween the Familiy mebers and Ferry always could manage to balance the interessts.

As long Wiedeking is pumping out shareholdervalue he has freedom and most family members will support him but when ever there is a new crisis ( say the US makes trouble like a decade ago ) he will swim in the middle from crocodiles.

Now he has to keep the family balanced with some members on his side while others waiting to snap in at every possible misstake.

I canīt follow why Porsche people donīt understand having a new family member.
The SUV surly was a bit a dream from Ferry Porsche as he allways loved to have a real four seater made by the company.

They allready had a four door seadan ready to launch, even the tooling was ready to make the car, but the project 989 was stoped when Bott left the company and Bez came from BMW. ( Bez was in my eyes the greatest looser and Reitzle kicked him out anyhow ).
Bez made the BMW Z1 and was still on the sportcartrip and maybe feared the clsh with BMW and Mercedes not to forget the new Lexus and Infinitys eating up the US marked.
And Piech maybe didīt support him as he also focused to roll over that market with his new V8. Politics.........

OK the rear axle from the 989 hit the road built into the 993. Also some other details.
I wish the 996 whould have received the 989 dashboard. The 989 would also had been made to a 928 follow up coupe later. The engine was basically the TAG V6 layout, enlarged, detuned and added with 2 cylinders. I think this will come now in the Chyenne.

Grüsse
http://www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate...ML/000070.html

R Robinson

Actually from what I understand the reason Porsche is going water cooled is to be able to comply with new European emission standards. Meeting those standards would be all but impossible with an air cooled prime mover. Another indirect blow by the Jane Fonda crowd.

Ed Ruiz

Not exactly the only reason. The P car engineers also know that there is a limit to how much HP can be extracted from an air-cooled engine. Water-cooled engines can make much more power (with more displacement) and still not over-heat. YMMV.

To augment what someone else said, "Air is good, water is better."