Big Reds?
Instructor
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 217
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From: Buffalo, NY
Brian, the problem with the big reds is the size of the caliper, you need to be sure that your wheel has enough space (Unfortunately I don't know the technical term) from the hub mounting surface to the "spokes" of the rim. Overall rim width should not be an issue if the above dimension is correct.
Also, to others, I have been examining this upgrade and wondered whether the twin turbo brakes on a lighter 911 is overkill and are 930 brakes with good cooling and pads more than you will need for DE events?
Also, to others, I have been examining this upgrade and wondered whether the twin turbo brakes on a lighter 911 is overkill and are 930 brakes with good cooling and pads more than you will need for DE events?
Burning Brakes
Joined: May 2001
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From: www.cupcar.net
Big Reds are certainly overkill for you. Keep in mind most club racers use stock brakes. Take a look at how fast they are going in their mostly stock, heavy street weight cars. Now re-examine why you think you need bigger brakes.
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From: TX
[quote]<strong>Also, to others, I have been examining this upgrade and wondered whether the twin turbo brakes on a lighter 911 is overkill and are 930 brakes with good cooling and pads more than you will need for DE events?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I installed 930 Turbo brakes on my 81 911SC, and they were very good. Better braking control and less fade. In addition, I could still use Fuchs with them, although stock 6x16's on the front and 7x16's on the rear (street tires) required thin spacers to clear the calipers. 8's and 9's with track tires cleared the calipers without needing spacers. This upgrade is discussed in an article on tech.rennlist.com and there are pictures posted in the 911SC FAQ in the section on performance upgrades.
I installed 930 Turbo brakes on my 81 911SC, and they were very good. Better braking control and less fade. In addition, I could still use Fuchs with them, although stock 6x16's on the front and 7x16's on the rear (street tires) required thin spacers to clear the calipers. 8's and 9's with track tires cleared the calipers without needing spacers. This upgrade is discussed in an article on tech.rennlist.com and there are pictures posted in the 911SC FAQ in the section on performance upgrades.
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The Big Reds will require a 322x32mm rotor. As Bill G. pointed out a modular 16" wheel will have more room at the corner where the rim and hub meet. Depending on the rim there may be enough room for them to fit in some modular rims. They will not fit Fuchs 16" though.
They are wide also, an 8" wide rim will have more room than a 7" rim axially for any given offset. Depending on offset you will probably need spacers for the 7s. The more negative offset a rim has the better chance spacers will not be needed.
For a light car a better caliper will be the 993 44/36 on a 304x32 930 rotor. The 18mm smaller diameter of the rotor will give you a little more breathing room and and will only sacrifice some thermal reserve and pad area while allowing the same hydraulic properties.
A potential problem is finding an appropriate rear caliper to match either the Big Red or 993 front caliper. The best match is either a 30/34 965 rear, a 30/34 964 C4 tl rear, a 30/34 964 RS rear, a 993C2S rear or 36/30 993RS rear. If this is for a 911 then the 930 309x28 rear rotor should be used and the best fit on this rotor will be from a 965 or RS rear.
The more straight forward brake upgrade, due to availability of matching f/r calipers and rotors, is to the 78-89 930 setup on 304x32 front and 309x28 rear.
There is a lot of brake info
<a href="http://www.pelicanparts.com/MotorCity/wmv/brakes.htm" target="_blank">here</a>
and
<a href="http://home.nycap.rr.com/wmv/generalbrmd.htm" target="_blank">here</a>
They are wide also, an 8" wide rim will have more room than a 7" rim axially for any given offset. Depending on offset you will probably need spacers for the 7s. The more negative offset a rim has the better chance spacers will not be needed.
For a light car a better caliper will be the 993 44/36 on a 304x32 930 rotor. The 18mm smaller diameter of the rotor will give you a little more breathing room and and will only sacrifice some thermal reserve and pad area while allowing the same hydraulic properties.
A potential problem is finding an appropriate rear caliper to match either the Big Red or 993 front caliper. The best match is either a 30/34 965 rear, a 30/34 964 C4 tl rear, a 30/34 964 RS rear, a 993C2S rear or 36/30 993RS rear. If this is for a 911 then the 930 309x28 rear rotor should be used and the best fit on this rotor will be from a 965 or RS rear.
The more straight forward brake upgrade, due to availability of matching f/r calipers and rotors, is to the 78-89 930 setup on 304x32 front and 309x28 rear.
There is a lot of brake info
<a href="http://www.pelicanparts.com/MotorCity/wmv/brakes.htm" target="_blank">here</a>
and
<a href="http://home.nycap.rr.com/wmv/generalbrmd.htm" target="_blank">here</a>
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Joe Kucinski
Race Car
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,706
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From: Virginia Beach, Va.
BH FAST, what I would like to know is what model you're installing the Big Reds on? I read through all the threads and couldn't seem to find what model you have? 
This might help as I seem to remember you can have Big Reds with 16" x 7" Fuchs?? ...maybe it was S4 calipers my friend had - can't remember.
I did have Wilwood Superlite II calipers on the front of my SC and could run my factory 16" x 6" Fuchs with them, no problem. I used 7" wide Fuchs for my track wheels, but 6" on the street and was astounded to figure out that I could use them!
If you are considering Big Reds on an SC or Carrera, I certainly hope you plan on Club Racing or getting into heavy DE...or it's just not worth it. I've seen a few people in my area do it on street cars, that's crazy.
This might help as I seem to remember you can have Big Reds with 16" x 7" Fuchs?? ...maybe it was S4 calipers my friend had - can't remember.
I did have Wilwood Superlite II calipers on the front of my SC and could run my factory 16" x 6" Fuchs with them, no problem. I used 7" wide Fuchs for my track wheels, but 6" on the street and was astounded to figure out that I could use them!
If you are considering Big Reds on an SC or Carrera, I certainly hope you plan on Club Racing or getting into heavy DE...or it's just not worth it. I've seen a few people in my area do it on street cars, that's crazy.
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 4,152
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From: Keswick, VA
I put Big Reds on my Carrera two years ago. I club race the car and as a result of the brakes, I have run up a class in E, as a prepared car.
I upgraded the brakes for two reasons:
1) Got a very, very good deal on the parts through my mechanic. Cheaper than 930 brakes.
2) Wanted better heat sink capability. Front rotors would start cracking after 2-3 events. I know guys who either DE or race Carreras, and they replace or rebuild calipers every year, sometimes twice a year. The stock Carrera 2-piston calipers just get to hot.
I've had the brakes on for 7 races, plus lots of DE. Still using the original rotors (I am not BSing). The fronts will probably last two more events, the rears look like they could last for a few more years. I've gone through a few sets of pads.
In the long run, I think the brakes have paid for themselves since had I kept the stock brakes, I'd probably have replaced or rebuilt the calipers at least 4 times, gone through at least 3-4 sets of rotors, and who knows how many sets of pads. The downside is, I had to go to 17 inch wheels because 16 inch Fuchs will not clear the calipers.
If you are going to do a good amount of track driving, a brake upgrade would be worth it. If not, save your money.
I upgraded the brakes for two reasons:
1) Got a very, very good deal on the parts through my mechanic. Cheaper than 930 brakes.
2) Wanted better heat sink capability. Front rotors would start cracking after 2-3 events. I know guys who either DE or race Carreras, and they replace or rebuild calipers every year, sometimes twice a year. The stock Carrera 2-piston calipers just get to hot.
I've had the brakes on for 7 races, plus lots of DE. Still using the original rotors (I am not BSing). The fronts will probably last two more events, the rears look like they could last for a few more years. I've gone through a few sets of pads.
In the long run, I think the brakes have paid for themselves since had I kept the stock brakes, I'd probably have replaced or rebuilt the calipers at least 4 times, gone through at least 3-4 sets of rotors, and who knows how many sets of pads. The downside is, I had to go to 17 inch wheels because 16 inch Fuchs will not clear the calipers.
If you are going to do a good amount of track driving, a brake upgrade would be worth it. If not, save your money.
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From: California, MD
An interesting related thread on Rennlist-Racing (not BB) about requirement to routinely rebuild Big Reds because the seals fail at about 400F. I generally fry the dust boots off after one or two events, but the seals are good for the season on the stock SC Little Greys. Since a broken rotor two years ago, I have only replaced the rotors twice. I think the first replacement was because of PF93s. I would like to upgrade the brakes and retain Fuchs wheels and now I am stuck part way between 15s and 16s.
I can understand Carrera51s selection of Big Reds as he certainly uses them effectively and also understand why he has chosen them. He probably is using the extra unsprung weight to keep his wheels on the ground. Some might use the term ballast.
I can understand Carrera51s selection of Big Reds as he certainly uses them effectively and also understand why he has chosen them. He probably is using the extra unsprung weight to keep his wheels on the ground. Some might use the term ballast.
Rennlist Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 4,152
Likes: 356
From: Keswick, VA
Hey Alan!
I haven't heard that about the seals on BRs. Couldn't find the thread you were referring to. Mine have held up fine, including the dust boots which still look OK. Might have something to do with the fact that my car could be considered over-braked, given the stock motor and high miles.
I haven't heard that about the seals on BRs. Couldn't find the thread you were referring to. Mine have held up fine, including the dust boots which still look OK. Might have something to do with the fact that my car could be considered over-braked, given the stock motor and high miles.
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From: California, MD
Mark
The thread is on the list, one of the vestiges of the Porschefans migration which I still cling to. The evolution of this forum is certainly a tribute to JD's perserverance.
I will forward the email to you. See you this weekend. I notice from the brief time that I followed your car, that the ballast seems to be working. Good luck.
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
The thread is on the list, one of the vestiges of the Porschefans migration which I still cling to. The evolution of this forum is certainly a tribute to JD's perserverance.
I will forward the email to you. See you this weekend. I notice from the brief time that I followed your car, that the ballast seems to be working. Good luck.
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
Thread Starter
Track Day
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 16
Likes: 1
From: Daytona Beach, FL
Jeff,
I have a 914-6 3.2 in the process of restoration. and was weighing my options for the rebuild. originally I looked at 930 brakes, and found the price to be comparible to the big reds. so I thought I would check them. I on doing auto-x DE, and eventualy club racing. the final weight should be around 2000-2200lbs. big reds are probaly overkill, but right now I'm just weighing my options. at the moment I have 16x6 fuchs, but want to run 17x7&9's. thanks for all the input.
Brian <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" />
I have a 914-6 3.2 in the process of restoration. and was weighing my options for the rebuild. originally I looked at 930 brakes, and found the price to be comparible to the big reds. so I thought I would check them. I on doing auto-x DE, and eventualy club racing. the final weight should be around 2000-2200lbs. big reds are probaly overkill, but right now I'm just weighing my options. at the moment I have 16x6 fuchs, but want to run 17x7&9's. thanks for all the input.
Brian <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" />