'71 911 E - What to look for
06-08-2005, 04:25 PM
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'71 911 E - What to look for
I am looking at buying a '71 911 E and need to know things I should look out for. I know to look for rust in the pan as well as in the trunk, but any other trouble spots?
What about mechanically? The car is stock with the 2.2 mechanically injected E motor and 901 trans. Not a lot of documentation, but I will be getting a PPI with compression test as well.
What about mechanically? The car is stock with the 2.2 mechanically injected E motor and 901 trans. Not a lot of documentation, but I will be getting a PPI with compression test as well.
06-08-2005, 05:01 PM
#2
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SS: The car you're looking at should not be fitted with a 901 transmission, it should have a type 911 trans. It is probably incorrect because the car originally was a Sportomatic with Hydropneumatic front suspension, and it's been retrofitted. The things to look into are (1) 4-speed or 5-speed?, (2) the '71E Sporto did not have torsion bar splines inside the front control arms, so much of the front suspension would have been changed over. Check to see that the bigger aluminum "S" front brake calipers are still there, and that the front struts and control arms were not taken from the same car that the 901 trans came from, (3) try to figure out what anti-roll (sway) bars were used (the Sporto didn't have them; the conventional setup needs them). Obviously the car NEEDS A PROFESSIONAL PPI, and if possible see if the technician can determine the size of the front torsion bars that were used. This car can potentially run the full range from Fright Pig to a decent car. Get it checked!
Pete
Pete
06-08-2005, 05:06 PM
#3
Of course, a lot of people call both 901 and 911 transmissions a '901' -- get the type no. & post it. in the format: xxx/xx
Pete didn't mention it, and you may not think about it, but a magnet is a quick way to check the caliper type...
I think every car needs a prof. PPI!
But you could do a "pre-PPI" to see if it is worth spending $200 or so to get a PPI....
Pete didn't mention it, and you may not think about it, but a magnet is a quick way to check the caliper type...
I think every car needs a prof. PPI!
But you could do a "pre-PPI" to see if it is worth spending $200 or so to get a PPI....
06-08-2005, 05:16 PM
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I haven't even seen the car yet, so I don't know a ton of details. It has the stock 5-speed in it, so I am assuming that it is a 911 trans then? It was never a Sportomatic. From what the current owner knows and has told me, it was upgraded at some point to 'S' front suspension.
A "PROFESSIONAL PPI" is not going to be terribly easy. The car is located about 200 miles from any good Porsche mechanics. There are good mechanics in the town that can go through the basics and do the compression test however.
A "PROFESSIONAL PPI" is not going to be terribly easy. The car is located about 200 miles from any good Porsche mechanics. There are good mechanics in the town that can go through the basics and do the compression test however.
06-08-2005, 05:50 PM
#5
Then do the best you can, AND factor in a reduction in your offer based on the very substantial risk in buying the car. Pete is very knowlegeable and is giving you some xlnt advise.
Maybe the seller will go with you to visit a major city where a pcar mechanic is located -- where is this anyway - Wyoming??
One way to look at it is what is the value of the parts. MFI and "S" calipers are worth money.
But you may want to get a different car - I know the early cars are getting hard to find.
Maybe the seller will go with you to visit a major city where a pcar mechanic is located -- where is this anyway - Wyoming??
One way to look at it is what is the value of the parts. MFI and "S" calipers are worth money.
But you may want to get a different car - I know the early cars are getting hard to find.
06-08-2005, 05:52 PM
#6
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You'll have enough money at stake that you better put that car on a trailer and take it to someone who will do a leakdown test, etc., and knows the fine points of the car.
Pete
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06-08-2005, 06:37 PM
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The car is in Southeastern Washington. I am in Seattle. Closest good mechanic is in Spokane, which is a 2.5 hour trip.
The car is a good deal partly because it is in a small backwater town. It would probably be going for 2x as much if it were within the grasp/knowledge of the RGruppe crew or anyone else knowlegeable in early cars.
Another acquaintence has already driven the car and said it ran strong. He is more Ferrari oriented, but mechanically knowledgeable (he is rebuilding his 246 Dino motor right now).
The current owner seems to be somewhat knowledgeable about his car, but not an expert. It had been converted to a single battery, but he switched it back to a dual battery set-up, so I know he has tried to keep it true to form without butchering it.
As the car is also a pretty good deal, I don't want to make the process terribly painful for the owner. For one, I don't want him to realize that it is worth quite a bit more by exposing it to a bunch of Porsche people in front of him. Also, he has been really easy to deal with and very honest so far. If he were asking top dollar, I would be forcing him to jump through all sorts of hoops, but as it stands now, I have plenty of room built into the price for even a motor rebuild. I just want to avoid a car with several large issues, like say a good chunk of rust and a motor rebuild. Hence my inital question about where to look for rust.
Thanks for the replies, they have been helpful and a good reminder to tread wearily.
The car is a good deal partly because it is in a small backwater town. It would probably be going for 2x as much if it were within the grasp/knowledge of the RGruppe crew or anyone else knowlegeable in early cars.
Another acquaintence has already driven the car and said it ran strong. He is more Ferrari oriented, but mechanically knowledgeable (he is rebuilding his 246 Dino motor right now).
The current owner seems to be somewhat knowledgeable about his car, but not an expert. It had been converted to a single battery, but he switched it back to a dual battery set-up, so I know he has tried to keep it true to form without butchering it.
As the car is also a pretty good deal, I don't want to make the process terribly painful for the owner. For one, I don't want him to realize that it is worth quite a bit more by exposing it to a bunch of Porsche people in front of him. Also, he has been really easy to deal with and very honest so far. If he were asking top dollar, I would be forcing him to jump through all sorts of hoops, but as it stands now, I have plenty of room built into the price for even a motor rebuild. I just want to avoid a car with several large issues, like say a good chunk of rust and a motor rebuild. Hence my inital question about where to look for rust.
Thanks for the replies, they have been helpful and a good reminder to tread wearily.
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06-08-2005, 08:48 PM
#8
Race Car
It could be a great deal, SuperSport.
However...
You are setting yourself up to take a potentially very-expensive bath.
8K rebuilds a motor.
2K rebuilds a transaxle.
Updating suspension components can be 1-4K.
Rust issues can be 1-8K.
'While-you're-in-there-itis' can increase those figures in a way that causes divorces.
Lots of guys out there spend 25K on a car that's worth 12K when they're done. I'm not saying I speak from experience here, or anything (lots of receipts from the rebuild, no PPI, 10K to put in the new motor), but in your shoes, I'd drive the Porsche mechanic to see it.
However...
You are setting yourself up to take a potentially very-expensive bath.
8K rebuilds a motor.
2K rebuilds a transaxle.
Updating suspension components can be 1-4K.
Rust issues can be 1-8K.
'While-you're-in-there-itis' can increase those figures in a way that causes divorces.
Lots of guys out there spend 25K on a car that's worth 12K when they're done. I'm not saying I speak from experience here, or anything (lots of receipts from the rebuild, no PPI, 10K to put in the new motor), but in your shoes, I'd drive the Porsche mechanic to see it.
06-08-2005, 09:15 PM
#9
Southeastern Washington....
- isn't there a mech. in Pull-person?? (formerly Pullman)
It can't be in the middle of the Blues... check with PCA to find somebody in Lewiston, or Waka-jawaka ... gotta be somebody somewhere down there. [sorry I can't be specific, when I lived in Pull-person I was a starving grad. student, so no Porsche then...]
BTW, more good advice from Jack...
be really careful, fall in love after you buy it, not before...
- isn't there a mech. in Pull-person?? (formerly Pullman)
It can't be in the middle of the Blues... check with PCA to find somebody in Lewiston, or Waka-jawaka ... gotta be somebody somewhere down there. [sorry I can't be specific, when I lived in Pull-person I was a starving grad. student, so no Porsche then...]
BTW, more good advice from Jack...
be really careful, fall in love after you buy it, not before...
06-08-2005, 09:17 PM
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I appreciate everyone's concern, but I am not a complete Porsche newbie. I used to work a dealership that sold about 25 used Porsches a year, I have driven probably 80 different air-cooled 911s, and I can (usually) quickly spot a dog from a good car. I am a big fan of the PPI and I always advise people to do the same and I am getting a PPI...it just probably won't be done by a Porsche specialist in this case. A PPI isn't going to catch everything, even if the guy is a god, it is simply a way to mitigate the risk of buying a used car. I know lots of horror stories, some with good PPIs attached as well.
What I am trying to get from the good folks that frequent the Rennlist 911 forum are two things. 1. Where to look for rust on a '71 E. 2. Specific mechanical issues to look out for on the '71 E.
While on the topic of engine rebuilds, what is a respectable compression range on this motor? Are there any components of the mechanical injection system that are prone to failure or wear?
What I am trying to get from the good folks that frequent the Rennlist 911 forum are two things. 1. Where to look for rust on a '71 E. 2. Specific mechanical issues to look out for on the '71 E.
While on the topic of engine rebuilds, what is a respectable compression range on this motor? Are there any components of the mechanical injection system that are prone to failure or wear?
06-08-2005, 09:29 PM
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Randy,
The car is in Walla Walla. I was in Pullman for 5 years, and I think my 914 was probably one of maybe two Porsches in town at the time. I have never heard of a mechanic there and I knew of a guy with a 930 who lived there who had it serviced in Spokane.
There used to be a guy in Walla Walla that would work in 911s (I grew up there) but he didn't exactly have the best reputation. With all of the wine money there now there are a couple of good Euro specific shops, but no Porsche specialists. Tri-Cities might have something, but I have never heard of a good mechanic there (but I haven't really looked before the last few days either).
The car is in Walla Walla. I was in Pullman for 5 years, and I think my 914 was probably one of maybe two Porsches in town at the time. I have never heard of a mechanic there and I knew of a guy with a 930 who lived there who had it serviced in Spokane.
There used to be a guy in Walla Walla that would work in 911s (I grew up there) but he didn't exactly have the best reputation. With all of the wine money there now there are a couple of good Euro specific shops, but no Porsche specialists. Tri-Cities might have something, but I have never heard of a good mechanic there (but I haven't really looked before the last few days either).
06-09-2005, 05:16 AM
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Peter, I read your post on PPIs and it makes a very thorough and useful check list. I plan to fax this to which ever shop I choose to provide the PPI and request that they adhere to it very closely. Thank you for being a good resource.
A question. Why do you prefer the leak down to the compression check? What might they miss with a compression check that would be evident in the leak down? Rings? Valve guides? More?
A question. Why do you prefer the leak down to the compression check? What might they miss with a compression check that would be evident in the leak down? Rings? Valve guides? More?
06-09-2005, 12:32 PM
#13
What is the price, if you don;t mind? Id say in today's market anything under $10K is a steal, and worth a bit of a gamble, $10-14K is a good deal, and anything over $14k you'd definately want to invest in a good PPI. If I got the car for $10, and had to put $8K into it to make it right, I wouldn't cry too hard as long as I had the cash... $18K foir a really nice E isn't a disaster.
IMHO the E is a very desirable car, and fairly rare and undervalued... its worth some effort.
Bottom line, if the body is straight and rust-free and the engine decent, and its not a cobbled up piece of junk, everything else can probably be fixed without getting too upside down in the car.
BTW.....EVERYWHERE is a rust trouble-spot on these cars... its like mice... if you see any, you probably have alot....good luck
IMHO the E is a very desirable car, and fairly rare and undervalued... its worth some effort.
Bottom line, if the body is straight and rust-free and the engine decent, and its not a cobbled up piece of junk, everything else can probably be fixed without getting too upside down in the car.
BTW.....EVERYWHERE is a rust trouble-spot on these cars... its like mice... if you see any, you probably have alot....good luck
06-09-2005, 12:52 PM
#14
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SS: The biggest problem with a comp. test on 911s is false readings. When doing a C.T. all the plugs are removed. Some exhaust valves will be open, and crud on the tip of the plugs can fall down and rest on the exposed valve seat/seats. When the engine is cranked, the contaminated valve seat will stop that valve from closing properly - bad reading. When doing a leak down test, the engine is placed on the cylinder to be tested, then the plug is removed and the tester hose installed. Both valves closed, no chance of contamination - accurate readings. If all is well, to test valve guides, warm the enginge, drive the car for a city block in second gear at 4K rpm, release the throttle and watch the tailpipe for smoke. Also, if the guides are very worn the engine will sound like it needs a valve adjustment badly, even with correct clearances. Good luck with it!
Pete
Pete