I am making reproduction Porsche engine cases!
01-13-2018, 02:45 PM
#106
Banned
Thread Starter
The update is that the casting part of the equation is 100% done, figured out, and ready to go. I could cast a hundred of them right now. In many respects, even though that part of the process was very expensive initially, it was perhaps the easiest part to figure out. Development on that aspect was very linear.
The machining is proving to be a bear not so much because of the scope of work (which is very formidable) but because even modern, high tech shops with 5 axis capabilities are scared of the work. Recall that Porsche machined these cases in house with their own equipment. By contrast, shops I have talked to are:
- inundated with other work
- scared of the tolerances and exacting nature of an engine, even though they ROUTINELY make parts with much higher tolerances.
- lacking the capability to mass produce these cases which would otherwise swamp their production capability.
I think I've found the right people for the job, and they are working on the fixturing right now. The human aspect of the machining process has perhaps been the most trying, but seems to be resolved at this point, albeit at a slower rate than I would like. Remember, one goal is to keep the cases cost effective for the average joe to buy....i.e. the cases need to cost no more than 5K or else it's not worth it.
The machining is proving to be a bear not so much because of the scope of work (which is very formidable) but because even modern, high tech shops with 5 axis capabilities are scared of the work. Recall that Porsche machined these cases in house with their own equipment. By contrast, shops I have talked to are:
- inundated with other work
- scared of the tolerances and exacting nature of an engine, even though they ROUTINELY make parts with much higher tolerances.
- lacking the capability to mass produce these cases which would otherwise swamp their production capability.
I think I've found the right people for the job, and they are working on the fixturing right now. The human aspect of the machining process has perhaps been the most trying, but seems to be resolved at this point, albeit at a slower rate than I would like. Remember, one goal is to keep the cases cost effective for the average joe to buy....i.e. the cases need to cost no more than 5K or else it's not worth it.
01-13-2018, 03:00 PM
#107
Thank you for the update. There are many projects that depend on finding the right person to help get it done. Good job hanging in there. I suspect from your previous posts you've had to persevere like this in your career, it's often the difference between success and a project languishing.
"Anyone could do it ... on paper."
"Anyone could do it ... on paper."
01-14-2018, 12:05 PM
#108
Banned
Thread Starter
Thanks Clive!
Yep, I'm a retired movie producer and let me tell you, every time you get a film off the ground it's like winning the lottery, that's how rare and hard it is. It's extremely hard to get all the moving parts lined up, and it rarely ever happens, so I had great training in trying to string together a diverse group of people to accomplish a mission.
There is no chance of failure here, because I won't let it fail, die, or stagnate.
Thanks for the kind words.
Yep, I'm a retired movie producer and let me tell you, every time you get a film off the ground it's like winning the lottery, that's how rare and hard it is. It's extremely hard to get all the moving parts lined up, and it rarely ever happens, so I had great training in trying to string together a diverse group of people to accomplish a mission.
There is no chance of failure here, because I won't let it fail, die, or stagnate.
Thanks for the kind words.
02-07-2018, 09:14 AM
#109
Hi
Very good idea and I am very happy about your 964 engine case reproduction, more over it was very instructive reading, finger crossed and subscribed.
CheeRS
Darek
ps. PM sent
Very good idea and I am very happy about your 964 engine case reproduction, more over it was very instructive reading, finger crossed and subscribed.
CheeRS
Darek
ps. PM sent
03-09-2018, 11:30 AM
#111
Rennlist Member
This is simply awesome
04-04-2018, 08:10 PM
#116
Congratulations and much success on this project! Nobody has asked this and maybe it's been mentioned but I missed it, but are the cases you are making going to have the dual oil squirters as the latest generation Mezger Porsche Motorsport cases? All the old style 964 Mezger cases had single squirters. I have both versions of these Mezger cases at home and the dual squirter Mezger case appears to be a much better design from a strength standpoint too. It's jewelry compared to the 964 case. Have you considered making a copy of the latest case instead of the old school 964? I would definitely be interested in one or two of the new gen. cases.
04-04-2018, 09:12 PM
#117
Banned
Thread Starter
Powdrhound,
Funny you mention this, I just got a call from Germany today asking if I could do the dual squirter case. The answer is - I can - kind of. I can integrate dual squirters in my case which from a design standpoint is better than even the motorsports case. So I'm looking into this as it seems to be a good mod.
Funny you mention this, I just got a call from Germany today asking if I could do the dual squirter case. The answer is - I can - kind of. I can integrate dual squirters in my case which from a design standpoint is better than even the motorsports case. So I'm looking into this as it seems to be a good mod.
04-04-2018, 10:14 PM
#118
Powdrhound,
Funny you mention this, I just got a call from Germany today asking if I could do the dual squirter case. The answer is - I can - kind of. I can integrate dual squirters in my case which from a design standpoint is better than even the motorsports case. So I'm looking into this as it seems to be a good mod.
Funny you mention this, I just got a call from Germany today asking if I could do the dual squirter case. The answer is - I can - kind of. I can integrate dual squirters in my case which from a design standpoint is better than even the motorsports case. So I'm looking into this as it seems to be a good mod.
I'm not a metallurgist (so this may be a very dumb question), but since all measurements are extremely critical on getting a dead accurate final product, would it not be best to use a brand new never used factory case to base the measurements off of instead of an old well worn case which has been subjected to countless heat cycles. Is it possible that continued heat cycling can cause a certain amount of creep or movement of the aluminum aluminum in the old case thus shifting some of the measurements slightly?
Last edited by powdrhound; 05-21-2018 at 03:35 PM.
04-04-2018, 11:19 PM
#119
Banned
Thread Starter
Thank you very much, please keep me posted. Which leads me to the next question. Why not just make a reproduction of the latest improved generation case (the one made in Austria) instead of focusing the energy time and effort to reproduce what is now an outdated 964 case? There is obviously a reason Porsche discarded the old 964 case in favor of the new improved design which lives on in the 991 Cup Mezger but can be used in all the other Mezger powered 964/996/997 cars. From a reproduction standpoint it must cost the same amount of R&D to reproduce the old 964 case as it does the new one.
I'm not a metallurgist (so this may be a very dumb question), but since all measurements are extremely critical on getting a dead accurate final product, would it not be best to use a brand new never used factory case to base the measurements off of instead of an old well worn case which has been subjected to countless heat cycles. Is it possible that continued heat cycling can cause a certain amount of creep or movement of the aluminum aluminum in the old case thus shifting some of the measurements slightly?
I'm not a metallurgist (so this may be a very dumb question), but since all measurements are extremely critical on getting a dead accurate final product, would it not be best to use a brand new never used factory case to base the measurements off of instead of an old well worn case which has been subjected to countless heat cycles. Is it possible that continued heat cycling can cause a certain amount of creep or movement of the aluminum aluminum in the old case thus shifting some of the measurements slightly?
I am not sure if there is an air cooled version of this "advanced" case - if there is, I have not personally seen it.
As to the 964 case, I made it initially because it is most in demand, plain and simple. If I had 100 964 cases in good shape today, I could sell them all in moments. That is how big the demand is currently. After this, I am making the 2.0/2.7, and the GT3/Turbo water pumper cases. We will see from there.
Also my case has three patents on it with devices not seen on any other case in existence, so I think it will outperform any factory Porsche case.
Using an old 964 case is necessary because there weren't any new cases to take dimensions from or scan. I was forced to work with old cases. It's not a problem really, for a number of reasons:
- The old case is used to determine casting dimensions, which are really forgiving compared to the machining dimensions.
- The critical machining tolerances are published dimensions. We don't measure things like journal bores, etc because they are published; there is a specification that needs to be achieved. We simply input these numbers.
- Believe it or not - and this will sound like heresy - most of the dimensions on the case are exactly what I say they will be. It doesn't matter. Consider the spacing between the case perimeter bolt holes, or their diameters for example. These can be whatever we want them to be as long as they match up to the other side.
So in fact, we do take many, many measurements and dimensions, but we do it more for posterity. Once the first case is machined, then built into a motor, we will refine from there.
From that point, subsequent case designs are literally cake, because they all share so much in common.
