Building a "GT4 Touring"...
07-10-2023, 03:11 PM
#1
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Building a "GT4 Touring"...
Hey guys! We have been discussing over the last couple of weeks the notion of building a "GT4 Touring". What that means seems to be different things to different people. At a high level I suppose we are comparing to the notion of a Winged GT3 versus a GT3 Touring, in a 991.2 and/or 992 sense, then it is taking a GT4 and removing the Wing, or making a Cayman GTS 4.0 as close to a GT4 as possible, in all aspects. (In all aspects with regards to what is important to that particular person.)
I absolutely adored my PDK GT4, but wanted to get a Manual GT4 as I now have a dedicated track car that I absolutely love. One of the things I have come to the conclusion of this year while getting used to that experience of the dedicated track car while for some period of time owning the GT4 is that I don't think I want a Wing on my Street Car, not even my "special weekend" street car. I want the street car to be a little more low key than a GT4 with a wing screaming "look at me, I am a Race Car for the street!". (No offense at all intended for those who do like that and want that! I was one of those people a year ago.)
For *me* it is really getting as close to a GT4 in all aspects, the more raw sound and feeling in the cabin that comes from less sound deadening, and the performance. The HP/Torque part of the equation is easy, the engines are identical, and a Tune completely equalizes between the 2 cars, and a full exhaust plus a Tune would make a GTS 4.0 a beast from a power perspective. But the GTS 4.0 is way under-tired and is somewhat under-suspensioned IMO, adding that power to a GTS would not be great without suspension, wheel and tire mods. At least for me. I know that from experience, with the Cayman GTS 4.0 and Boxster 25, and then experiencing the superior chassis in the GT4, with a Full Exhaust and Tune.
As much as it seems the easy path to go is to take a GT4 and remove the Wing (as discussed on many threads here on the 981 Forum and here), I have a hard time getting myself comfortable with that. I don't think it would be a huge difference at most street speeds, however when stretching the legs of the car occasionally I think there would be a risk, one that I am not sure about taking. My GT4 PDK (now sold) was significantly more planted at speeds of 120-140 (in Mexico or on Private Airstrips, of course) than the Cayman GTS 4.0 or the Boxster 25. (That was with the Front Aero pieces out for max front downforce, RSNV Wing Risers and the rake of the Rear Wing in Max Downforce.) I think an unbalanced mix of front downforce with significantly less rear downforce might be a problem at higher speeds, as gorgeous as a Wingless GT4 is.
Taking a GTS 4.0 and modding the Aero I think provides the opportunity for better balanced aero than taking the Wing off the GT4 - in that the rear wing of a Cayman GTS 4.0 rises at speed (at 81 mph, to be precise). If you keep all the aero stock, you are balanced, and you could mod the performance of a Cayman GTS 4.0 with Exhaust, Tune, Suspension and Tires to match or exceed the Engine and Chassis performance of a GT4. (As folks like @NiteCrawlr and @RoadrunnerGTS have done.) You would have less downforce, but it would be balanced.
You could take that further with the Cayman GTS 4.0 by modding the Aero while trying to keep some notion of balance - for instance do a larger spoiler (like the TWL Carbon one, which I had and really liked, and may get again) and do a GT4 or GT4-like front fascia and lip. You could do the GT4/Spyder rear diffuser, and also take a look at the underbody Aero to better align that to the GT4 and Spyder. That would theoretically give you roughly the aero balance of the Spyder, if you think about it.
For me I would also need to figure out how to roughly match the rawness of the sound inside the cabin, that visceral sound and feeling that I loved some much in the GT4. As @NiteCrawlr has discussed, the Glass Engine cover helps let more of that engine and intake noise into the cabin. I already have one of those ready to go for a potential Cayman GTS 4.0 "GT4 Touring" build project, to address that part of it.
This notion is really coming to a head for me, as I am feeling some timing pressure to figure what I want to do to "lock in" my 718 (or two) to tide me over for 718 4.0 Manual goodness for the next several years, with the platform completely going away, GT4 and Spyder allocations being completely done, and reportedly GTS 4.0 allocations be done imminently as well. (I have both a built GT4 Manual and a Cayman GTS 4.0 Manual on order now - both are done in Manufacturing and in stages of transit to the dealers. I am still not 100% certain if I will take delivery of both, or pick one and run with it.)
Let's discuss more here!
-Pete
P.S. In celebration of this concept, I have updated my Avatar to a "GT4 Touring". I am not handy at Photoshop, but an iPad with an Apple Pencil and about 5 minutes was all that was required!
I absolutely adored my PDK GT4, but wanted to get a Manual GT4 as I now have a dedicated track car that I absolutely love. One of the things I have come to the conclusion of this year while getting used to that experience of the dedicated track car while for some period of time owning the GT4 is that I don't think I want a Wing on my Street Car, not even my "special weekend" street car. I want the street car to be a little more low key than a GT4 with a wing screaming "look at me, I am a Race Car for the street!". (No offense at all intended for those who do like that and want that! I was one of those people a year ago.)
For *me* it is really getting as close to a GT4 in all aspects, the more raw sound and feeling in the cabin that comes from less sound deadening, and the performance. The HP/Torque part of the equation is easy, the engines are identical, and a Tune completely equalizes between the 2 cars, and a full exhaust plus a Tune would make a GTS 4.0 a beast from a power perspective. But the GTS 4.0 is way under-tired and is somewhat under-suspensioned IMO, adding that power to a GTS would not be great without suspension, wheel and tire mods. At least for me. I know that from experience, with the Cayman GTS 4.0 and Boxster 25, and then experiencing the superior chassis in the GT4, with a Full Exhaust and Tune.
As much as it seems the easy path to go is to take a GT4 and remove the Wing (as discussed on many threads here on the 981 Forum and here), I have a hard time getting myself comfortable with that. I don't think it would be a huge difference at most street speeds, however when stretching the legs of the car occasionally I think there would be a risk, one that I am not sure about taking. My GT4 PDK (now sold) was significantly more planted at speeds of 120-140 (in Mexico or on Private Airstrips, of course) than the Cayman GTS 4.0 or the Boxster 25. (That was with the Front Aero pieces out for max front downforce, RSNV Wing Risers and the rake of the Rear Wing in Max Downforce.) I think an unbalanced mix of front downforce with significantly less rear downforce might be a problem at higher speeds, as gorgeous as a Wingless GT4 is.
Taking a GTS 4.0 and modding the Aero I think provides the opportunity for better balanced aero than taking the Wing off the GT4 - in that the rear wing of a Cayman GTS 4.0 rises at speed (at 81 mph, to be precise). If you keep all the aero stock, you are balanced, and you could mod the performance of a Cayman GTS 4.0 with Exhaust, Tune, Suspension and Tires to match or exceed the Engine and Chassis performance of a GT4. (As folks like @NiteCrawlr and @RoadrunnerGTS have done.) You would have less downforce, but it would be balanced.
You could take that further with the Cayman GTS 4.0 by modding the Aero while trying to keep some notion of balance - for instance do a larger spoiler (like the TWL Carbon one, which I had and really liked, and may get again) and do a GT4 or GT4-like front fascia and lip. You could do the GT4/Spyder rear diffuser, and also take a look at the underbody Aero to better align that to the GT4 and Spyder. That would theoretically give you roughly the aero balance of the Spyder, if you think about it.
For me I would also need to figure out how to roughly match the rawness of the sound inside the cabin, that visceral sound and feeling that I loved some much in the GT4. As @NiteCrawlr has discussed, the Glass Engine cover helps let more of that engine and intake noise into the cabin. I already have one of those ready to go for a potential Cayman GTS 4.0 "GT4 Touring" build project, to address that part of it.
This notion is really coming to a head for me, as I am feeling some timing pressure to figure what I want to do to "lock in" my 718 (or two) to tide me over for 718 4.0 Manual goodness for the next several years, with the platform completely going away, GT4 and Spyder allocations being completely done, and reportedly GTS 4.0 allocations be done imminently as well. (I have both a built GT4 Manual and a Cayman GTS 4.0 Manual on order now - both are done in Manufacturing and in stages of transit to the dealers. I am still not 100% certain if I will take delivery of both, or pick one and run with it.)
Let's discuss more here!
-Pete
P.S. In celebration of this concept, I have updated my Avatar to a "GT4 Touring". I am not handy at Photoshop, but an iPad with an Apple Pencil and about 5 minutes was all that was required!
Last edited by IL_Pete; 07-10-2023 at 03:28 PM.
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07-10-2023, 03:34 PM
#2
Three Wheelin'
I’m just gonna say it, with what little context I derive from casually following your post history.
Must be nice?
You go through Porsches like my wife goes through shoes.
I got nothing for you. You’re going to do all of the above and still be right back in line for another one in 3-6 months.
Must be nice?
You go through Porsches like my wife goes through shoes.
I got nothing for you. You’re going to do all of the above and still be right back in line for another one in 3-6 months.
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IL_Pete (07-10-2023)
07-10-2023, 03:34 PM
#3
Three Wheelin'
I think it would be easier to copy / fit the Spyder front aero on a GT4 than have to do all the little things that it would take to convert to a GTS to a GT4.
I only see a few advantages to using the GTS as your base:
1) if you already have a GTS
2) if you prefer the looks of a GTS. The front bumper is less aggressive. And you wouldn’t have to plug any holes in the rear deck from removing wing.
Since you are already modifying the suspension you could choose after market coilovers and potentially surpass a stock gt4. But it will be costly between the wheels, suspension arms, brakes, etc. that need to be changed to truly make it a GT4 touring. so I just don’t see the point.
If you start with a GTS keep it a GTS with light mods only.
I only see a few advantages to using the GTS as your base:
1) if you already have a GTS
2) if you prefer the looks of a GTS. The front bumper is less aggressive. And you wouldn’t have to plug any holes in the rear deck from removing wing.
Since you are already modifying the suspension you could choose after market coilovers and potentially surpass a stock gt4. But it will be costly between the wheels, suspension arms, brakes, etc. that need to be changed to truly make it a GT4 touring. so I just don’t see the point.
If you start with a GTS keep it a GTS with light mods only.
Last edited by vantage; 07-10-2023 at 03:37 PM.
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07-10-2023, 03:41 PM
#4
FWIW, I feel that the spirit of the "Touring" model from a GT-division standpoint is a model trim that has almost all of the mechanical features of a GT-product, without the hardcore aero for a more understated look.
The closest thing to a GT4 Touring to me is the 718 Spyder. Dialed down aero front and back, GT-suspension. The front splitter is less aggressive, the rear wing serves all necessary aero needs for the street while being understated and subtle. The manual transmission option is also a key component to the touring formula.
BTW, I think the 718 GTS 4.0 is a terrific touring car. I just see it as its own thing, and not a "GT4 Touring."
I realize this is totally not helpful to your plight, given the cars you have on the way. I definitely respect that you are looking to build your perfect car. Perhaps you've already considered this, but if no large wing is really your decision, in your position I would:
1. Get a 718 Spyder (if you had to have mid-engine), or
2. Get a 991.2 GT3 Touring, or
3. Keep the GTS 4.0 and dispel notions that it's a GT4 Touring. It's its own thing, and it's great.
The closest thing to a GT4 Touring to me is the 718 Spyder. Dialed down aero front and back, GT-suspension. The front splitter is less aggressive, the rear wing serves all necessary aero needs for the street while being understated and subtle. The manual transmission option is also a key component to the touring formula.
BTW, I think the 718 GTS 4.0 is a terrific touring car. I just see it as its own thing, and not a "GT4 Touring."
I realize this is totally not helpful to your plight, given the cars you have on the way. I definitely respect that you are looking to build your perfect car. Perhaps you've already considered this, but if no large wing is really your decision, in your position I would:
1. Get a 718 Spyder (if you had to have mid-engine), or
2. Get a 991.2 GT3 Touring, or
3. Keep the GTS 4.0 and dispel notions that it's a GT4 Touring. It's its own thing, and it's great.
Last edited by KelvinC; 07-10-2023 at 03:59 PM.
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07-10-2023, 03:52 PM
#5
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I’m just gonna say it, with what little context I derive from casually following your post history.
Must be nice?
You go through Porsches like my wife goes through shoes.
I got nothing for you. You’re going to do all of the above and still be right back in line for another one in 3-6 months.
Must be nice?
You go through Porsches like my wife goes through shoes.
I got nothing for you. You’re going to do all of the above and still be right back in line for another one in 3-6 months.
Except for the part about being back in line for another one in 6 months, there won't be any left to order, except RS's with a PDK, which I am not interest in. Nor do I care for 911's. 911's are amazing, don't get me wrong, I have driven many 991's and 992's on and off track. I just like them as much as a 718 4.0 Manual, for fun and engagement on the street.
I think it would be easier to copy / fit the Spyder front aero on a GT4 than have to do all the little things that it would take to convert to a GTS to a GT4.
I only see a few advantages to using the GTS as your base:
1) if you already have a GTS
2) if you prefer the looks of a GTS. The front bumper is less aggressive. And you wouldn’t have to plug any holes in the rear deck from removing wing.
3) since you are already modifying the suspension you could choose after market coilovers and potentially surpass a stock gt4. But it will be costly between the wheels, suspension arms, brakes, etc.
I only see a few advantages to using the GTS as your base:
1) if you already have a GTS
2) if you prefer the looks of a GTS. The front bumper is less aggressive. And you wouldn’t have to plug any holes in the rear deck from removing wing.
3) since you are already modifying the suspension you could choose after market coilovers and potentially surpass a stock gt4. But it will be costly between the wheels, suspension arms, brakes, etc.
Another aspect I should mention. My GT4 on order is about $40K more than the price of my GTS on order - ~$20K of that is in MSRP difference, and ~$20K is in ADM difference. I could spend $20K+ in Mods and still be ahead of the game with the GTS!
There are some other minor things too, minor features that might be nice to have in a street car - Ventilated Seats, Porsche Entry and drive, Lane Departure Warning, proper door handles versus the pull-straps, Memory seats, etc. (Both of mine have 18-Ways - as much as I would love to do the LWBS's, I do not like that very upright seating for a street car, even with the brackets to kick them back a bit. For a Race/Track Car - yes, that would be fine, but for a Street Car, no thank you. Still, I considered it for the GT4, but both LWBS's and PCCB's were on Stop Ship when my order froze anyway.)
07-10-2023, 04:00 PM
#6
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
FWIW, I feel that the spirit of the "Touring" model from a GT-division standpoint is a model trim that has almost all of the mechanical features of a GT-product, without the hardcore aero for a more understated look.
The closest thing to a GT4 Touring to me is the 718 Spyder. Dialed down aero front and back, GT-suspension. The front splitter is less aggressive, the rear wing serves all necessary aero needs for the street while being understated and subtle.
BTW, I think the 718 GTS 4.0 is a terrific touring car. I just see it as its own thing, and not a "GT4 Touring."
I realize this is totally not helpful to your plight, given the cars you have on the way. I definitely respect that you are looking to build your perfect car. Perhaps you've already considered this, but if no large wing is really your decision, in your position I would:
1. Get a 718 Spyder (if you had to have mid-engine), or
2. Get a 991.2 GT3 Touring, or
3. Keep the GTS 4.0 and dispel notions that it's a GT4 Touring. It's its own thing, and it's great.
The closest thing to a GT4 Touring to me is the 718 Spyder. Dialed down aero front and back, GT-suspension. The front splitter is less aggressive, the rear wing serves all necessary aero needs for the street while being understated and subtle.
BTW, I think the 718 GTS 4.0 is a terrific touring car. I just see it as its own thing, and not a "GT4 Touring."
I realize this is totally not helpful to your plight, given the cars you have on the way. I definitely respect that you are looking to build your perfect car. Perhaps you've already considered this, but if no large wing is really your decision, in your position I would:
1. Get a 718 Spyder (if you had to have mid-engine), or
2. Get a 991.2 GT3 Touring, or
3. Keep the GTS 4.0 and dispel notions that it's a GT4 Touring. It's its own thing, and it's great.
I am so confused. The Chicago area Rennlisters really need to get together and stage an Intervention, LOL!
Last edited by IL_Pete; 07-10-2023 at 04:01 PM.
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LooseNut (07-23-2023)
07-10-2023, 05:24 PM
#7
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I realize this is totally not helpful to your plight, given the cars you have on the way. I definitely respect that you are looking to build your perfect car. Perhaps you've already considered this, but if no large wing is really your decision, in your position I would:
1. Get a 718 Spyder (if you had to have mid-engine), or
2. Get a 991.2 GT3 Touring, or
3. Keep the GTS 4.0 and dispel notions that it's a GT4 Touring. It's its own thing, and it's great.
1. Get a 718 Spyder (if you had to have mid-engine), or
2. Get a 991.2 GT3 Touring, or
3. Keep the GTS 4.0 and dispel notions that it's a GT4 Touring. It's its own thing, and it's great.
Further replies to those points:
Yes re Spyder, I went down that road just recently and bought used 2021 with a spec that wasn't perfect for me. I had buyers remorse given it was a 2021 versus a 2023, and decided I was going to sell it and go for the GT4 and/or the Cayman GTS 4.0 I had on order, with my personally spec'ed options. If I had the opportunity to spec a new build on a Spyder, I would probably go down that road, even though there are things about the Spyder I don't love (like mostly the Manual Roof and the compromised rear visibility). I am not really a convertible guy, but I do love the Styling of the Spyder, top up and top down.
With regards to the 991.2 GT3, I have also very seriously considered those as well along the way. It is not that I have to have a mid-engine car, more so that I just prefer the smaller feeling package of the 718 4.0, for the street. Whenever I looked at 991.2 Tourings (when I was ready to buy), I never found one that I loved the spec of. I have driven the 992 GT3, but not a 991, but from what I have read and talked to people about, I think I would like a 991.2 more than a 992. I didn't feel great about spending well over $200K for a 5 year old car, versus getting a new GT4 for around $150K. (Obviously the resale value is there with the GT3, so the long term total cost is probably comparable.)
Agree that the GTS 4.0 is something special in and of itself, and doesn't need to try to become a GT4 Touring to be special. Both my Albert Blue Cayman GTS 4.0 and Boxster 25 Manuals were totally awesome with the Mods I did to them, but they couldn't match the rawness of the interior of the GT4, nor hang with the suspension of the GT4 with the stock Sport PASM suspension (with the DSC), and just wider tires.
I haven't sold the Spyder yet, keeping that for a while is an option on the table. It has been down at my shop at the track with a couple of timing challenges - (1) it didn't have a valid registration yet, and (2) my shop was really busy and didn't have time to install the mods. I was planning to sell it asap before installing any mods (have two dealer offers to choose from), so I wasn't going to install the mods, I was just going to sell it. Now I pretty much have the registration sorted out, but they still can't install the mods until late next week or more likely the following week. I am tempted to keep it a while and give it a go with the mods, but if so I might have to take it to a different shop.
I never make things easy for myself, I know!
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07-10-2023, 05:33 PM
#8
Rennlist Member
Pete,
Before I had my 718 Spyder built, I did think about going down a similar route. My recipe was as follows:
- 718 Spyder front splitter element
- Buy a 2nd Cayman hatch from a non GT4, as to avoid doing bodywork to fill the holes on the hatch that came with the car
- Same suspension setup as my Spyder has now (not really necessary)
- Exhaust (very necessary, you know this)
- DeMan gears (also necessary, IMO)
Done and done.
Before I had my 718 Spyder built, I did think about going down a similar route. My recipe was as follows:
- 718 Spyder front splitter element
- Buy a 2nd Cayman hatch from a non GT4, as to avoid doing bodywork to fill the holes on the hatch that came with the car
- Same suspension setup as my Spyder has now (not really necessary)
- Exhaust (very necessary, you know this)
- DeMan gears (also necessary, IMO)
Done and done.
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IL_Pete (07-10-2023)
07-10-2023, 05:46 PM
#9
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Pete,
Before I had my 718 Spyder built, I did think about going down a similar route. My recipe was as follows:
- 718 Spyder front splitter element
- Buy a 2nd Cayman hatch from a non GT4, as to avoid doing bodywork to fill the holes on the hatch that came with the car
- Same suspension setup as my Spyder has now (not really necessary)
- Exhaust (very necessary, you know this)
- DeMan gears (also necessary, IMO)
Done and done.
Before I had my 718 Spyder built, I did think about going down a similar route. My recipe was as follows:
- 718 Spyder front splitter element
- Buy a 2nd Cayman hatch from a non GT4, as to avoid doing bodywork to fill the holes on the hatch that came with the car
- Same suspension setup as my Spyder has now (not really necessary)
- Exhaust (very necessary, you know this)
- DeMan gears (also necessary, IMO)
Done and done.
- 718 Spyder Front lower spoiler - Yup, I would do that!
- 2nd Hatch with no holes, paint and swap - Yup! That too.
- Exhaust - yes, the same Kline Inconel Exhaust + Soul Street Headers with an M-Engineering Tune that you heard when we got together briefly last winter! (Man, it was cold that day...)
- Deman Gears - Yes, I do definitely plan to do that, on whatever I end up with. Probably in 2024 at this point.
With regards to Suspension - please remind me - what do you have on the Spyder?
07-10-2023, 06:05 PM
#10
Option 1:
GT4 as a base. Remove its wing and front bumper, keeping the diffuser. Add Techart front which is more aggressive, ducktail spoiler.
Option 2:
CGTS with:
- Tune + Kline
- GT4 SSK + weighted shift ****
- 7mm spacers + 245/295 tires, or a set of Apex Vs-5RS wheels
- GT4 diffuser
- lowering springs -10mm, or Tractive suspension
- ducktail + Techart front, or after market GT4 style bumper from https://rexsupersport.com/carbon-par...t-pp-material/.... or just retro fit the GT4 front and rear and side intakes
- Lower gearing from GT or DeMan
- Surface Transform ceramic brakes
Option 2 will be a more exciting prospect. I'm very happy with my CGTS as is (Tune, Kline, 245/295 + 7mm). Just waiting for the gearing to be completed in a few weeks. I don't feel the need for suspension changes. Will do ST brakes when they become available, not because of need for better braking performance, but rather reduction in unsprung weight benefits. IMO, it will should then be one hell of a street/canyon car, with appearance of a sleeper and maintaining daily drive manners.
GT4 as a base. Remove its wing and front bumper, keeping the diffuser. Add Techart front which is more aggressive, ducktail spoiler.
Option 2:
CGTS with:
- Tune + Kline
- GT4 SSK + weighted shift ****
- 7mm spacers + 245/295 tires, or a set of Apex Vs-5RS wheels
- GT4 diffuser
- lowering springs -10mm, or Tractive suspension
- ducktail + Techart front, or after market GT4 style bumper from https://rexsupersport.com/carbon-par...t-pp-material/.... or just retro fit the GT4 front and rear and side intakes
- Lower gearing from GT or DeMan
- Surface Transform ceramic brakes
Option 2 will be a more exciting prospect. I'm very happy with my CGTS as is (Tune, Kline, 245/295 + 7mm). Just waiting for the gearing to be completed in a few weeks. I don't feel the need for suspension changes. Will do ST brakes when they become available, not because of need for better braking performance, but rather reduction in unsprung weight benefits. IMO, it will should then be one hell of a street/canyon car, with appearance of a sleeper and maintaining daily drive manners.
Last edited by RoadrunnerGTS; 07-10-2023 at 06:19 PM.
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IL_Pete (07-10-2023)
07-10-2023, 06:34 PM
#11
Thanks for the shout out, Pete!
I don't think you can go wrong with any of these cars. Wing vs no wing vs vert, they all have a similar base with a number of possible upgrades to suit anyone's personal tastes.
I have a modified GTS that I am highly satisfied with and won't let go of. I couldn't get an allocation without an insane ADM for anything else (most recently a 4RS), so I put the extra money into mods and am really enjoying the car. I won't sell or trade now since I love how the car drives, I would take a huge bath on it with all of the aftermarket parts, and like you have mentioned they won't make these models for much longer. If I had a GT4 I would have likely done most of the same modifications and I prefer the wingless look anyway so I am content. I don't really feel the need for any extra aero right now as car feels planted even at 120+. I may change my mind in the future and look into some of those possibilities, but I would be scared about tinkering with the aerodynamic balance without some professionals weighing in.
All in all if I were going to buy a new car and I was worried about resale or wanted to keep as close to stalk as possible, I would get a GT4 hands down. But if I had a choice between a GT4 and a GTS plus an extra $20-30g worth of mods, I would get the GTS and put that extra money into suspension (coilovers, LCAs, toe links, tie rods), 18" wheels since they clear GTS brakes, and the Kline exhaust with the clear engine cover. The shortened gearing, lightweight flywheel, headers, and tune I would do next. The numeric racing shifter and cables paired with the Sportshifter medium weight shift **** is also an incredible mod people should try - I've never felt a better manual shifter in a car before.
I don't think you can go wrong with any of these cars. Wing vs no wing vs vert, they all have a similar base with a number of possible upgrades to suit anyone's personal tastes.
I have a modified GTS that I am highly satisfied with and won't let go of. I couldn't get an allocation without an insane ADM for anything else (most recently a 4RS), so I put the extra money into mods and am really enjoying the car. I won't sell or trade now since I love how the car drives, I would take a huge bath on it with all of the aftermarket parts, and like you have mentioned they won't make these models for much longer. If I had a GT4 I would have likely done most of the same modifications and I prefer the wingless look anyway so I am content. I don't really feel the need for any extra aero right now as car feels planted even at 120+. I may change my mind in the future and look into some of those possibilities, but I would be scared about tinkering with the aerodynamic balance without some professionals weighing in.
All in all if I were going to buy a new car and I was worried about resale or wanted to keep as close to stalk as possible, I would get a GT4 hands down. But if I had a choice between a GT4 and a GTS plus an extra $20-30g worth of mods, I would get the GTS and put that extra money into suspension (coilovers, LCAs, toe links, tie rods), 18" wheels since they clear GTS brakes, and the Kline exhaust with the clear engine cover. The shortened gearing, lightweight flywheel, headers, and tune I would do next. The numeric racing shifter and cables paired with the Sportshifter medium weight shift **** is also an incredible mod people should try - I've never felt a better manual shifter in a car before.
The following 2 users liked this post by NiteCrawlr:
IL_Pete (07-10-2023),
RoadrunnerGTS (07-10-2023)
07-10-2023, 06:57 PM
#12
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Option 1:
GT4 as a base. Remove its wing and front bumper, keeping the diffuser. Add Techart front which is more aggressive, ducktail spoiler.
Option 2:
CGTS with:
- Tune + Kline
- GT4 SSK + weighted shift ****
- 7mm spacers + 245/295 tires, or a set of Apex Vs-5RS wheels
- GT4 diffuser
- lowering springs -10mm, or Tractive suspension
- ducktail + Techart front, or after market GT4 style bumper from https://rexsupersport.com/carbon-par...t-pp-material/.... or just retro fit the GT4 front and rear and side intakes
- Lower gearing from GT or DeMan
- Surface Transform ceramic brakes
Option 2 will be a more exciting prospect. I'm very happy with my CGTS as is (Tune, Kline, 245/295 + 7mm). Just waiting for the gearing to be completed in a few weeks. I don't feel the need for suspension changes. Will do ST brakes when they become available, not because of need for better braking performance, but rather reduction in unsprung weight benefits. IMO, it will should then be one hell of a street/canyon car, with appearance of a sleeper and maintaining daily drive manners.
GT4 as a base. Remove its wing and front bumper, keeping the diffuser. Add Techart front which is more aggressive, ducktail spoiler.
Option 2:
CGTS with:
- Tune + Kline
- GT4 SSK + weighted shift ****
- 7mm spacers + 245/295 tires, or a set of Apex Vs-5RS wheels
- GT4 diffuser
- lowering springs -10mm, or Tractive suspension
- ducktail + Techart front, or after market GT4 style bumper from https://rexsupersport.com/carbon-par...t-pp-material/.... or just retro fit the GT4 front and rear and side intakes
- Lower gearing from GT or DeMan
- Surface Transform ceramic brakes
Option 2 will be a more exciting prospect. I'm very happy with my CGTS as is (Tune, Kline, 245/295 + 7mm). Just waiting for the gearing to be completed in a few weeks. I don't feel the need for suspension changes. Will do ST brakes when they become available, not because of need for better braking performance, but rather reduction in unsprung weight benefits. IMO, it will should then be one hell of a street/canyon car, with appearance of a sleeper and maintaining daily drive manners.
Thanks for the shout out, Pete!
I don't think you can go wrong with any of these cars. Wing vs no wing vs vert, they all have a similar base with a number of possible upgrades to suit anyone's personal tastes.
I have a modified GTS that I am highly satisfied with and won't let go of. I couldn't get an allocation without an insane ADM for anything else (most recently a 4RS), so I put the extra money into mods and am really enjoying the car. I won't sell or trade now since I love how the car drives, I would take a huge bath on it with all of the aftermarket parts, and like you have mentioned they won't make these models for much longer. If I had a GT4 I would have likely done most of the same modifications and I prefer the wingless look anyway so I am content. I don't really feel the need for any extra aero right now as car feels planted even at 120+. I may change my mind in the future and look into some of those possibilities, but I would be scared about tinkering with the aerodynamic balance without some professionals weighing in.
All in all if I were going to buy a new car and I was worried about resale or wanted to keep as close to stalk as possible, I would get a GT4 hands down. But if I had a choice between a GT4 and a GTS plus an extra $20-30g worth of mods, I would get the GTS and put that extra money into suspension (coilovers, LCAs, toe links, tie rods), 18" wheels since they clear GTS brakes, and the Kline exhaust with the clear engine cover. The shortened gearing, lightweight flywheel, headers, and tune I would do next. The numeric racing shifter and cables paired with the Sportshifter medium weight shift **** is also an incredible mod people should try - I've never felt a better manual shifter in a car before.
I don't think you can go wrong with any of these cars. Wing vs no wing vs vert, they all have a similar base with a number of possible upgrades to suit anyone's personal tastes.
I have a modified GTS that I am highly satisfied with and won't let go of. I couldn't get an allocation without an insane ADM for anything else (most recently a 4RS), so I put the extra money into mods and am really enjoying the car. I won't sell or trade now since I love how the car drives, I would take a huge bath on it with all of the aftermarket parts, and like you have mentioned they won't make these models for much longer. If I had a GT4 I would have likely done most of the same modifications and I prefer the wingless look anyway so I am content. I don't really feel the need for any extra aero right now as car feels planted even at 120+. I may change my mind in the future and look into some of those possibilities, but I would be scared about tinkering with the aerodynamic balance without some professionals weighing in.
All in all if I were going to buy a new car and I was worried about resale or wanted to keep as close to stalk as possible, I would get a GT4 hands down. But if I had a choice between a GT4 and a GTS plus an extra $20-30g worth of mods, I would get the GTS and put that extra money into suspension (coilovers, LCAs, toe links, tie rods), 18" wheels since they clear GTS brakes, and the Kline exhaust with the clear engine cover. The shortened gearing, lightweight flywheel, headers, and tune I would do next. The numeric racing shifter and cables paired with the Sportshifter medium weight shift **** is also an incredible mod people should try - I've never felt a better manual shifter in a car before.
Please stay tuned here, I may have some more questions for you!
A pic for everyone for reference, of the potential donor Cayman GTS 4.0 Manual for the project:
(Oddly enough, the GT4 is a little closer to getting here, but for some reason I don't have the elevator pic yet...)
The following users liked this post:
IL_Pete (07-10-2023)
07-10-2023, 08:14 PM
#14
Rennlist Member
Hey guys! We have been discussing over the last couple of weeks the notion of building a "GT4 Touring". What that means seems to be different things to different people. At a high level I suppose we are comparing to the notion of a Winged GT3 versus a GT3 Touring, in a 991.2 and/or 992 sense, then it is taking a GT4 and removing the Wing, or making a Cayman GTS 4.0 as close to a GT4 as possible, in all aspects. (In all aspects with regards to what is important to that particular person.)
I absolutely adored my PDK GT4, but wanted to get a Manual GT4 as I now have a dedicated track car that I absolutely love. One of the things I have come to the conclusion of this year while getting used to that experience of the dedicated track car while for some period of time owning the GT4 is that I don't think I want a Wing on my Street Car, not even my "special weekend" street car. I want the street car to be a little more low key than a GT4 with a wing screaming "look at me, I am a Race Car for the street!". (No offense at all intended for those who do like that and want that! I was one of those people a year ago.)
For *me* it is really getting as close to a GT4 in all aspects, the more raw sound and feeling in the cabin that comes from less sound deadening, and the performance. The HP/Torque part of the equation is easy, the engines are identical, and a Tune completely equalizes between the 2 cars, and a full exhaust plus a Tune would make a GTS 4.0 a beast from a power perspective. But the GTS 4.0 is way under-tired and is somewhat under-suspensioned IMO, adding that power to a GTS would not be great without suspension, wheel and tire mods. At least for me. I know that from experience, with the Cayman GTS 4.0 and Boxster 25, and then experiencing the superior chassis in the GT4, with a Full Exhaust and Tune.
As much as it seems the easy path to go is to take a GT4 and remove the Wing (as discussed on many threads here on the 981 Forum and here), I have a hard time getting myself comfortable with that. I don't think it would be a huge difference at most street speeds, however when stretching the legs of the car occasionally I think there would be a risk, one that I am not sure about taking. My GT4 PDK (now sold) was significantly more planted at speeds of 120-140 (in Mexico or on Private Airstrips, of course) than the Cayman GTS 4.0 or the Boxster 25. (That was with the Front Aero pieces out for max front downforce, RSNV Wing Risers and the rake of the Rear Wing in Max Downforce.) I think an unbalanced mix of front downforce with significantly less rear downforce might be a problem at higher speeds, as gorgeous as a Wingless GT4 is.
Taking a GTS 4.0 and modding the Aero I think provides the opportunity for better balanced aero than taking the Wing off the GT4 - in that the rear wing of a Cayman GTS 4.0 rises at speed (at 81 mph, to be precise). If you keep all the aero stock, you are balanced, and you could mod the performance of a Cayman GTS 4.0 with Exhaust, Tune, Suspension and Tires to match or exceed the Engine and Chassis performance of a GT4. (As folks like @NiteCrawlr and @RoadrunnerGTS have done.) You would have less downforce, but it would be balanced.
You could take that further with the Cayman GTS 4.0 by modding the Aero while trying to keep some notion of balance - for instance do a larger spoiler (like the TWL Carbon one, which I had and really liked, and may get again) and do a GT4 or GT4-like front fascia and lip. You could do the GT4/Spyder rear diffuser, and also take a look at the underbody Aero to better align that to the GT4 and Spyder. That would theoretically give you roughly the aero balance of the Spyder, if you think about it.
For me I would also need to figure out how to roughly match the rawness of the sound inside the cabin, that visceral sound and feeling that I loved some much in the GT4. As @NiteCrawlr has discussed, the Glass Engine cover helps let more of that engine and intake noise into the cabin. I already have one of those ready to go for a potential Cayman GTS 4.0 "GT4 Touring" build project, to address that part of it.
This notion is really coming to a head for me, as I am feeling some timing pressure to figure what I want to do to "lock in" my 718 (or two) to tide me over for 718 4.0 Manual goodness for the next several years, with the platform completely going away, GT4 and Spyder allocations being completely done, and reportedly GTS 4.0 allocations be done imminently as well. (I have both a built GT4 Manual and a Cayman GTS 4.0 Manual on order now - both are done in Manufacturing and in stages of transit to the dealers. I am still not 100% certain if I will take delivery of both, or pick one and run with it.)
Let's discuss more here!
-Pete
P.S. In celebration of this concept, I have updated my Avatar to a "GT4 Touring". I am not handy at Photoshop, but an iPad with an Apple Pencil and about 5 minutes was all that was required!
I absolutely adored my PDK GT4, but wanted to get a Manual GT4 as I now have a dedicated track car that I absolutely love. One of the things I have come to the conclusion of this year while getting used to that experience of the dedicated track car while for some period of time owning the GT4 is that I don't think I want a Wing on my Street Car, not even my "special weekend" street car. I want the street car to be a little more low key than a GT4 with a wing screaming "look at me, I am a Race Car for the street!". (No offense at all intended for those who do like that and want that! I was one of those people a year ago.)
For *me* it is really getting as close to a GT4 in all aspects, the more raw sound and feeling in the cabin that comes from less sound deadening, and the performance. The HP/Torque part of the equation is easy, the engines are identical, and a Tune completely equalizes between the 2 cars, and a full exhaust plus a Tune would make a GTS 4.0 a beast from a power perspective. But the GTS 4.0 is way under-tired and is somewhat under-suspensioned IMO, adding that power to a GTS would not be great without suspension, wheel and tire mods. At least for me. I know that from experience, with the Cayman GTS 4.0 and Boxster 25, and then experiencing the superior chassis in the GT4, with a Full Exhaust and Tune.
As much as it seems the easy path to go is to take a GT4 and remove the Wing (as discussed on many threads here on the 981 Forum and here), I have a hard time getting myself comfortable with that. I don't think it would be a huge difference at most street speeds, however when stretching the legs of the car occasionally I think there would be a risk, one that I am not sure about taking. My GT4 PDK (now sold) was significantly more planted at speeds of 120-140 (in Mexico or on Private Airstrips, of course) than the Cayman GTS 4.0 or the Boxster 25. (That was with the Front Aero pieces out for max front downforce, RSNV Wing Risers and the rake of the Rear Wing in Max Downforce.) I think an unbalanced mix of front downforce with significantly less rear downforce might be a problem at higher speeds, as gorgeous as a Wingless GT4 is.
Taking a GTS 4.0 and modding the Aero I think provides the opportunity for better balanced aero than taking the Wing off the GT4 - in that the rear wing of a Cayman GTS 4.0 rises at speed (at 81 mph, to be precise). If you keep all the aero stock, you are balanced, and you could mod the performance of a Cayman GTS 4.0 with Exhaust, Tune, Suspension and Tires to match or exceed the Engine and Chassis performance of a GT4. (As folks like @NiteCrawlr and @RoadrunnerGTS have done.) You would have less downforce, but it would be balanced.
You could take that further with the Cayman GTS 4.0 by modding the Aero while trying to keep some notion of balance - for instance do a larger spoiler (like the TWL Carbon one, which I had and really liked, and may get again) and do a GT4 or GT4-like front fascia and lip. You could do the GT4/Spyder rear diffuser, and also take a look at the underbody Aero to better align that to the GT4 and Spyder. That would theoretically give you roughly the aero balance of the Spyder, if you think about it.
For me I would also need to figure out how to roughly match the rawness of the sound inside the cabin, that visceral sound and feeling that I loved some much in the GT4. As @NiteCrawlr has discussed, the Glass Engine cover helps let more of that engine and intake noise into the cabin. I already have one of those ready to go for a potential Cayman GTS 4.0 "GT4 Touring" build project, to address that part of it.
This notion is really coming to a head for me, as I am feeling some timing pressure to figure what I want to do to "lock in" my 718 (or two) to tide me over for 718 4.0 Manual goodness for the next several years, with the platform completely going away, GT4 and Spyder allocations being completely done, and reportedly GTS 4.0 allocations be done imminently as well. (I have both a built GT4 Manual and a Cayman GTS 4.0 Manual on order now - both are done in Manufacturing and in stages of transit to the dealers. I am still not 100% certain if I will take delivery of both, or pick one and run with it.)
Let's discuss more here!
-Pete
P.S. In celebration of this concept, I have updated my Avatar to a "GT4 Touring". I am not handy at Photoshop, but an iPad with an Apple Pencil and about 5 minutes was all that was required!
The following users liked this post:
IL_Pete (07-10-2023)
