Pointless/Unobtanium Car
03-28-2022, 06:43 PM
#136
Rennlist Member
it literally has everything to do with that. If the US and subsequently world goes into recession in the next year you won’t have any problem getting whatever Porsche you like at MSRP. Just in the same way there were Spyders and GT4’s sitting in showrooms in 2020 at MSRP with no customer history to buy them.
Just in the same way 997.2 GT3’s Porsches have held their value so well not just because it’s arguably the best GT3 ever made, but Porsche wasn’t selling a lot of these luxury track cars in 2010 as the global economy struggled to get traction after the GFC. Not to mention they were about 30% cheaper than a 992 GT3.
This literally has everything to do with economics and government policy, anything else is a by product really.
Just in the same way 997.2 GT3’s Porsches have held their value so well not just because it’s arguably the best GT3 ever made, but Porsche wasn’t selling a lot of these luxury track cars in 2010 as the global economy struggled to get traction after the GFC. Not to mention they were about 30% cheaper than a 992 GT3.
This literally has everything to do with economics and government policy, anything else is a by product really.
So previous to this there were never huge ADMs, waiting lists for the rarer Porsche cars? The only difference here is that it is filtering down to the more regular cars. It isn’t just one thing causing all of this to happen. It’s a confluence of many things, a lot of caused by the pandemic etc.
03-28-2022, 07:32 PM
#137
Drifting
Market retardation is cooling a bit for what I see. I’m in the process of shopping for another house to use as a rental and stuff is still selling within 2 days in the city I am looking at but conditions are now popping up on sales (whereas a month ago everything was no conditions often bought site unseen… absolutely a crazy way to buy an old house. Even townhouses with multiple special assessments pending were selling for bidding wars without even any info from the strata) and some stuff is selling for list and a few homes sold under list. The bidding wars still are happening on the majority but aren’t very high either now. More inventory comes on to the market in spring so I think that’s helping lower the retardation right now even though spring is usually when housing demand maxed.
03-28-2022, 07:36 PM
#138
Rennlist Member
Ok, it would have to be a pretty bad recession for that too happen as the ones at the top are usually shielded much more than at the bottom.
So previous to this there were never huge ADMs, waiting lists for the rarer Porsche cars? The only difference here is that it is filtering down to the more regular cars. It isn’t just one thing causing all of this to happen. It’s a confluence of many things, a lot of caused by the pandemic etc.
So previous to this there were never huge ADMs, waiting lists for the rarer Porsche cars? The only difference here is that it is filtering down to the more regular cars. It isn’t just one thing causing all of this to happen. It’s a confluence of many things, a lot of caused by the pandemic etc.
The economy would have to absolutely tank beyond a normal for asset prices to meaningfully decrease. Folks buying GT3's/GT4's and most newish Porsches in general are in the top 1%. The median income of Macan buyers is $440k...
03-28-2022, 08:06 PM
#139
Three Wheelin'
Market retardation is cooling a bit for what I see. I’m in the process of shopping for another house to use as a rental and stuff is still selling within 2 days in the city I am looking at but conditions are now popping up on sales (whereas a month ago everything was no conditions often bought site unseen… absolutely a crazy way to buy an old house. Even townhouses with multiple special assessments pending were selling for bidding wars without even any info from the strata) and some stuff is selling for list and a few homes sold under list. The bidding wars still are happening on the majority but aren’t very high either now. More inventory comes on to the market in spring so I think that’s helping lower the retardation right now even though spring is usually when housing demand maxed.
03-28-2022, 10:54 PM
#140
Porsche could solve the ADM issue if they wanted to, but they choose to let it go on which could harm the brand going forward. How many people are going to look at McLaren for the first time since they are selling at MSRP?
Regarding the economy, when people start saying asset prices can't fall, it is a new paradigm, etc it is time to start looking for the exits. While I agree that most of this is helicopter money related (and a LOT of it went into the top 5%) now that the support has been removed and the Fed is behind the curve we could see a very rapid drop. It is not inevitable, but it is a decent possibility.
Regarding the economy, when people start saying asset prices can't fall, it is a new paradigm, etc it is time to start looking for the exits. While I agree that most of this is helicopter money related (and a LOT of it went into the top 5%) now that the support has been removed and the Fed is behind the curve we could see a very rapid drop. It is not inevitable, but it is a decent possibility.
03-29-2022, 12:05 AM
#141
Rennlist Member
Porsche could solve the ADM issue if they wanted to, but they choose to let it go on which could harm the brand going forward. How many people are going to look at McLaren for the first time since they are selling at MSRP?
Regarding the economy, when people start saying asset prices can't fall, it is a new paradigm, etc it is time to start looking for the exits. While I agree that most of this is helicopter money related (and a LOT of it went into the top 5%) now that the support has been removed and the Fed is behind the curve we could see a very rapid drop. It is not inevitable, but it is a decent possibility.
Regarding the economy, when people start saying asset prices can't fall, it is a new paradigm, etc it is time to start looking for the exits. While I agree that most of this is helicopter money related (and a LOT of it went into the top 5%) now that the support has been removed and the Fed is behind the curve we could see a very rapid drop. It is not inevitable, but it is a decent possibility.
03-29-2022, 06:30 AM
#142
I'd presume the difference is McLaren is struggling as an auto maker right now and is happy to just keep production rolling on, Porsche is not in that position.
If Porsche cars were average or below, there would be no ADM on their prices.
The price of a new Porsche, all models has gone up considerably over the years as they continue to make great cars, well above inflation and almost all other automakers.
The thing is, if they put their prices up 25% based on demand, and if demand drys up they can't drop their prices 25%, or even 5%.
From everything I've read here its actually the US government that allows dealers to get away with this ADM circus and I don't see any other RL members from
other countries complaining they are facing ADM's but we all have the same waiting period on deliveries.
If Porsche cars were average or below, there would be no ADM on their prices.
The price of a new Porsche, all models has gone up considerably over the years as they continue to make great cars, well above inflation and almost all other automakers.
The thing is, if they put their prices up 25% based on demand, and if demand drys up they can't drop their prices 25%, or even 5%.
From everything I've read here its actually the US government that allows dealers to get away with this ADM circus and I don't see any other RL members from
other countries complaining they are facing ADM's but we all have the same waiting period on deliveries.
03-29-2022, 08:36 AM
#143
Rennlist Member
Some people will always complain irrespective
if Porsche increase the price, they will complain
if Porsche increase supply, and cars depreciate significantly, they will complain
If Porsche stay the course they will complain
bottom line, in life you can control your actions , but can't control the action of other people
so if you like Porsche cars , buy them under the current corporate model
or move on to another brand
I personally , like limited production , as it decreases depreciation
if Porsche increase the price, they will complain
if Porsche increase supply, and cars depreciate significantly, they will complain
If Porsche stay the course they will complain
bottom line, in life you can control your actions , but can't control the action of other people
so if you like Porsche cars , buy them under the current corporate model
or move on to another brand
I personally , like limited production , as it decreases depreciation
03-29-2022, 09:28 AM
#144
It frustrates people because actual enthusiasts who would buy them and drive them, have to get scalped by dealers. The guys with 10 cars who probably don't care get gifted them as MSRP. Collectible is the operative word.
If you want track insurance, most insurers top out at sub $200k so even if you buy it to use as a track tool you are carrying a ton of risk.
I know that if I could get one at MSRP I'd buy one tomorrow.
If you want track insurance, most insurers top out at sub $200k so even if you buy it to use as a track tool you are carrying a ton of risk.
I know that if I could get one at MSRP I'd buy one tomorrow.
Supply and demand. Basic free market economics.
03-29-2022, 03:20 PM
#145
Rennlist Member
Should we regulate the market? Setting min and max prices for new and used cars? Perhaps one sports car per person limit by law? Perhaps owning a luxury sports car should be a constitutional right? Are you complaining so much about healthcare costs?
Supply and demand. Basic free market economics.
Supply and demand. Basic free market economics.
The rest of your points don't make any sense either...
03-29-2022, 03:24 PM
#146
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SpyderSenseOC (03-29-2022)
03-29-2022, 04:22 PM
#148
Some people will always complain irrespective
if Porsche increase the price, they will complain
if Porsche increase supply, and cars depreciate significantly, they will complain
If Porsche stay the course they will complain
bottom line, in life you can control your actions , but can't control the action of other people
so if you like Porsche cars , buy them under the current corporate model
or move on to another brand
I personally , like limited production , as it decreases depreciation
if Porsche increase the price, they will complain
if Porsche increase supply, and cars depreciate significantly, they will complain
If Porsche stay the course they will complain
bottom line, in life you can control your actions , but can't control the action of other people
so if you like Porsche cars , buy them under the current corporate model
or move on to another brand
I personally , like limited production , as it decreases depreciation
Yeah there is always a flip side. It is great once you get your foot in the door as an owner, but the opposite for those looking to get their foot in. The cost of entry is high, but once you achieve that, the reward is that you do not lose your *** in depreciation.
While I kinda got screwed out of my discounted pricing (before the crazy started), I am still glad I got in at least at MSRP. Especially now since I have decided this is not going to be a long term commitment, just a place holder.
I had a similar experience when I got into my previous SS 1LE, coming out of an F80 M3. Back in 2018 I picked up my SS 1LE for almost $5K under sticker, paid almost half of what I did for my M3 AND got a much superior product and driving experience (except a few luxury appointments). So, my payment was low, but I also knew that deprecation would suck, but it got me in the door cheap. In the end, I did good because of the state of things.
Sports cars are tough in general, especially now, because you are forced to commit to it without knowing what it is really about, so the fact that you can take that jump now and exit out with little to no cost gives some peace of mind. This is also why in general there is a high turn over rate for sports cars.
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Odin (03-30-2022)