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hf1 sums it just right about the GT3. Got to trail in hard, then transition to the gas with a tiny flick of the wheel to start to move the back end out a bit, then drive it hard off the back outside wheel to your track out point. Very stable and smooth when you have a well set up car and a bit of skill. I pretty much drive my Cayman in a similar manner when on a hot lap. When the tires are old and heat cycled out the car floats around the whole corner with slip angle all the time. With a cayman that can be easily adjusted with throttle, steering, and or the brake at will. Kinda like skiing on hard packed snow vs powder. I always enjoy the last few days on my old tires. Once you get some heat in them, they are a blast. You can toss the car around at will at slower speeds more safely. Excellent training tool. Then when you get brand new sticky tires, you are more comfortable with the car moving around and are really fast.
Yes, once you learn how to “unstick” a car and to straddle (keep it just over/under) the grip limit, then that’s how you drive every car at the track. It’s also the safest way as you need to constantly be “ahead” of the car and it will rarely surprise you. Everything else becomes a cool-down lap in comparison. You can do this with all cars but the 911 is the most fun. I’m saying this as an avid Boxster fan who went from DE Green to Black in a 987 Boxster S, now racing a Spec Boxster, and consider the Boxster to be the ideal backroads carver.
Yes that "unstuck" feeling is what keeps many of us going back to the track to get our fix whenever we can. Sort of like making birdie putts or a 350 yard drive in golf. It is very rewarding when you get a student start to trail brake on their own cause it feels right, and then start to use a little slip angle as they exit the corner. Pretty soon they are braking later and harder into the corner and then using some occasional counter steer without throttle left as they exit the corner. When they take their helmet off after that first truly "ah ha" session, they have a big grin on their face, the light bulb just went on big time, and you know you've hooked another PCA member on the true art of driving their Porsche.
From: Mid-Atlantic (on land, not in the middle of the ocean)
Originally Posted by hf1
Yes, once you learn how to “unstick” a car and to straddle (keep it just over/under) the grip limit, then that’s how you drive every car at the track. It’s also the safest way as you need to constantly be “ahead” of the car and it will rarely surprise you. Everything else becomes a cool-down lap in comparison. You can do this with all cars but the 911 is the most fun. I’m saying this as an avid Boxster fan who went from DE Green to Black in a 987 Boxster S, now racing a Spec Boxster, and consider the Boxster to be the ideal backroads carver.
Originally Posted by lovetoturn
Yes that "unstuck" feeling is what keeps many of us going back to the track to get our fix whenever we can. Sort of like making birdie putts or a 350 yard drive in golf. It is very rewarding when you get a student start to trail brake on their own cause it feels right, and then start to use a little slip angle as they exit the corner. Pretty soon they are braking later and harder into the corner and then using some occasional counter steer without throttle left as they exit the corner. When they take their helmet off after that first truly "ah ha" session, they have a big grin on their face, the light bulb just went on big time, and you know you've hooked another PCA member on the true art of driving their Porsche.
I get what you guys are saying, but probably important to clarify that "unstuck" means significant slip angle, not going to this extreme:
Yes, by "unstuck" we mean a slight slide by say 3-10 degrees and not all out drifting. Somewhere in the 4-5 degree range is probably the fastest way around the track with the tire's rubber having maximum adhesion at that slip angle. Ross Bentley's book "Speed Secrets" would be a good place to start for anyone wanting to seriously improve their driving.
From: Mid-Atlantic (on land, not in the middle of the ocean)
Originally Posted by lovetoturn
Yes, by "unstuck" we mean a slight slide by say 3-10 degrees and not all out drifting. Somewhere in the 4-5 degree range is probably the fastest way around the track with the tire's rubber having maximum adhesion at that slip angle. Ross Bentley's book "Speed Secrets" would be a good place to start for anyone wanting to seriously improve their driving.
When you have that kind of slip angle, there's actually very little outright "sliding". It just seems that way because slip angle means that the tires are deforming such that the angle the car heads doesn't match what the steering is asking for. If you're truly sliding (e.g., drifting), the grip will be well below optimal - and tire life will be greatly reduced!
When you have that kind of slip angle, there's actually very little outright "sliding". It just seems that way because slip angle means that the tires are deforming such that the angle the car heads doesn't match what the steering is asking for. If you're truly sliding (e.g., drifting), the grip will be well below optimal - and tire life will be greatly reduced!
Let's start a separate thread about the definition of "sliding", lol... Everyone understands what we're talking about.
A car is "stuck" (or drives "as if on rails") when driven well below the grip limit. It gets "unstuck" by driving it at or slightly over the grip limit. Pros can unstick a car and keep it so close to the grip limit (by minute and imperceptible over/under adjustments) that to a viewer it looks as if the car is stuck (no visible sliding at all). The graph on page 2 of this excellent article describes this in more detail:
From: Mid-Atlantic (on land, not in the middle of the ocean)
Originally Posted by hf1
Let's start a separate thread about the definition of "sliding", lol... Everyone understands what we're talking about.
A car is "stuck" (or drives "as if on rails") when driven well below the grip limit. It gets "unstuck" by driving it at or slightly over the grip limit. Pros can unstick a car and keep it so close to the grip limit (by minute and imperceptible over/under adjustments) that to a viewer it looks as if the car is stuck (no visible sliding at all). The graph on page 2 of this excellent article describes this in more detail:
Has already been discussed in much detail in the Racing and DE section. I just want to make sure people don't think the fast way to get around the lap involves substantial "sliding". Like you said, a smoother driver can turn a fast lap and generate good slip angles without it really feeling like sliding. Sometimes I'm pretty smooth, sometimes kind of rough (depends on track and what I'm try to do - rough can be fun). Can't do it like Kimi though (except on snow and karting).
I find 911 driving (of all vintages) to be incredibly entertaining at the track too - Nothing more fun than really nailing a corner perfectly (like a perfect golf shot).
I really loved my 981 GT4 too (mainly on mountain roads in Europe and Colorado), but it never gave me a thrill at the track like a 911 (aside from my first ever laps on Nurburgring when I didn’t come near the limit).
From: Mid-Atlantic (on land, not in the middle of the ocean)
Originally Posted by GrantG
I find 911 driving (of all vintages) to be incredibly entertaining at the track too - Nothing more fun than really nailing a corner perfectly (like a perfect golf shot).
I really loved my 981 GT4 too (mainly on mountain roads in Europe and Colorado), but it never gave me a thrill at the track like a 911 (aside from my first ever laps on Nurburgring when I didn’t come near the limit).
A 911 asks the driver to do more in order to get it right, and IMO rewards the driver with more satisfaction when the driver does get it right.
07-24-2020 | 08:13 AM
