GottiOfTheDeep

Let's look at the numbers. Let's look at the money. Let's look at the marketing.

Calendar year 2023
911 11,692
718 4,526
TAYCAN 7,570
PANAMERA 4,205
CAYENNE 20,475
MACAN 26,947

Total 75,415

Porsche Reports US Retail Sales for 2023 - Porsche Newsroom USA

718s are 6% of their sales in the United States. Do you think Porsche is going to abandon their push, their marketing of EVs and revert BACK to ICE? Have you seen Porsche USA and Germany marketing on social media? They are 95% EV and 10% Hybrid. The amount of R&D spent on this campaign for them to abandon the new whatever they're going to call the 2 seat EV and go back to ICE or hybrid is wishful thinking. If their sales were 25% share, 35%, and they dropped, I could see change.... but we're talking 6% of the sales are 718s. It's EV time and I know that will not fly in the United States. The EU is making a costly mistake. Hybrid 911 first, then comes the EV 911. Eventually after those fail to sell, there will be a correction, but the days of analog gauges and manual transmissions have ended.

CarGuy07

I’m not saying that Porsche will reverse course making ICE, but rather have a one special year for enthusiasts and make various models available again just for a year or two before fully going EV. Wishful thinking but just thinking that would be something.

GottiOfTheDeep

It would be nice! I simply don't think the revenue is there for them to justify it. NOW is the time for enthusiasts to get their allocations in before going EV. They gave a year notice. As soon as I heard, I submitted my build on October 26th, 2023.

CarGuy07

yeah, wish I did that on a Spyder. Wasn’t planning on it until now. Used pricing is still higher than original MSRP. Newly specced GTS 4.0 is on par with Spyder so might as well get a GT car. Looking for a gently used 718 Spyder in white with PDK and black interior. Surprisingly not too many clean examples available in the $120-130K range.

Xxyion

Yeah it think you are right in that regard. I was kinda thinking that maybe with the low numbers of the 718 already, if those numbers dropped further then they would just take the current generation chassis and throw in a hybrid engine to get sales back. However realistically they might actually just end up cutting the model completley.

That being said we also have to remember that the US is not the main market. EU bought around 20k units of the 718 in 2023 which is 4 times as many that were sold in the US. Now granted thats still only around 13% out of their total lineup and may not make a difference in the grand scheme of things, but we also just dont really know how things will change over the years. It is probably wishful thinking, but i will still hold out hope that we can get a hybrid 718 in the future.

JCtx

I have a related question to the ICE-EV conundrum: Until when the current 2.0T, 2.5T, and 4.0 engine certifications are good in the US? I ask, because if the engines (or some of them), and platform (we don't have the GSR issue here), are still good beyond 2025, Porsche could easily keep selling the current 718 along the new EV version (in the US, and other markets), no? I also agree governments could change their tunes at any time, especially now that right-wing parties are taking over everywhere, and they typically don't give a crap about the environment, and could reverse any such laws. Interesting times; that's for sure.

CarGuy07

agree with the sentiment that automakers could (maybe should) continue to make ICE cars for the foreseeable future. It could also be hybrid but not fully electric. Toyota, for example, hasn’t bought into the whole EV thing. Their focus is still mostly hybrid and ICE cars.

GottiOfTheDeep

Think about this logically from a business perspective and our current condition in the United States. Germany has launched an EV and Hybrid campaign. The Hybrid campaign seemingly is their transition to EV. EU mandate is by 2035, but maybe they'll stay with a hybrid?
EU May Water Down Harsh 2035 EV Mandate And Reprieve Hybrids (forbes.com).

Let's discuss EV in the US. We do not have the infrastructure to support EVs. We don't have the grid to support millions of people charging millions of EVs. Read some articles about "Can the U.S. support EVs" When you start reading about "charging times during off peaks hours" THAT is a huge red flag. "Oh we have the capacity along with running your A/C in the hot summer months, you just can't charge your car until 2am." 1% of the cars in the United States are EVs, and the small amount of that 1% in California are restricted LOL! Remember when California told EVs owners they can't charge their cars? Amid Heat Wave, California Asks Electric Vehicle Owners to Limit Charging - The New York Times (nytimes.com) Sept 1, 2022. Yeah, I'll go ahead and say it again, We do not have the infrastructure to support millions of EVs in the United States. We will need more Nuclear plants, Coal plants.

1 more thing to look for. When the billions of dollars of subsidies to the American car manufactures to build EVs stop, and the tax incentives stop for people to buy EVs, watch what happens.

Happy Friday my friends. I hope everyone here has a FANTASTIC weekend. Drive your Porsches, stay cool, vigilant, and we'll talk on Monday.

Zhao

That still means no manuals. Whole point of a 718 to me is a manual drivers car. Unless they use the hybrid system not to put power to the wheels but to put power to a turbo for electric anti lag and then do what VW did with diesels, and italians do with everything, and just declare the emissions are 0.01 and get all insulted when they ask to double check the data.

In theory I guess they could develop a computer speed controlled electric motor that is disengaged until needed and then 'rev' matches to the wheel speed, allowing a manual to still be possible for rear wheel drive and electric for fwd assist. Not sure why they haven't developed something like that as we've had torque split awd systems since the 80s that in some respects are quite similar.

OUGrad05

Hot take:
The next gen GT4 and GT4 RS will be normally aspirated and high revving. Probably a few tweaks to the current 4.0. Maybe the GT4 gets some sort of hybrid with a small battery and electric motor? But those are low enough volume they could indeed continue with a combustion engine and probably will. GTS and below? Probably plug-in electric only given the regs in the rest of the world.

TXshaggy

I’m confused…are those your wishes above? Hot take?

PAG has already announced the 983 718 will be EV only. Probably released early CY2025

Current cars end production in Oct 2025.

OUGrad05

I wouldn't say they're my wishes per se. If I get my 4.0 allocation having them no more would be good for my car's value. But I think they'll rethink EV only on the next generation cayman and probably already have contingency in place. So seeing GT cars with ICE won't surprise me one bit. Good business decision and can be done under the euro regs.

TXshaggy

You’ll definitely see GT3 cars. PAG carved out an exception to allow zero emissions carbon capture fuels.

Unless the current laws are relaxed, ICE gone.

PAG will use other trims to meet intermediate goals to keep as much ICE in 911 as possible.

Drifting

agree. The simple truth is that the 911 is the symbol and the heart of Porsche. To meet emission goals porsche will sacrifice the ICE versions of their “less important” models such as their lesser SUV (the Macan), and their lesser 2 door sports cars (Boxster/cayman). Keeping the 911 ICE is paramount, not the lesser cars.

I just hope they keep the 911 GT cars pure NA. I really want to see 994 GT cars with 4.2L pure NA engines, though I expect to see hybrid 994 GT cars without increased displacement, instead.

One of the biggest impediments to porsche even making future ICE mid engine models is that they would have to completely create an entirely new car as the 983 was designed with great expense to be EV only. You can’t just throw an NA engine in it.

All that said, the selfish part of me hopes Porsche doesn’t make another NA Spyder RS, as my car will continue to gain value. But the enthusiast part of me hopes i am wrong.

AlexCeres

The 718 isn’t only going away because of ice. There are safety and other regulations it can’t meet in the EU. It wouldn’t shock me if we someday see a hybrid, but it can’t be a 718. It’d need to be a new project. And at the caymans current sales numbers, that’s a tough thing to justify. As drifting notes, the 983 is a Bev platform, and the cayman only gets one.