View Poll Results: You own a .1 GT3 and are buying a .2 GT3, manual or PDK?
Manual
67
37.85%
PDK
93
52.54%
Never owned a PDK GT3 and PDK owners should be shot by ISIS
17
9.60%
Voters: 177. You may not vote on this poll
Twist: Manual vs. PDK Poll for actual GT3-PDK owners
03-28-2017, 11:53 PM
#31
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by RajDatta
I had the opposite effect. Bought a 991 GT3 while still owning a 997.2 GT3. The 997 just sat in the garage. I would never drive it. When driven back to back, the 997 engine felt lethargic and lazy. Just didn't connect with the car anymore. Sold the 997 and have never looked back.
To be honest, at one point I was considering moving to a 997.2 RS and I am glad I didn't and instead got a 991 GT3 with PDK. The 2 cars seem Yrs apart even though they are only a few yrs apart.
To be honest, at one point I was considering moving to a 997.2 RS and I am glad I didn't and instead got a 991 GT3 with PDK. The 2 cars seem Yrs apart even though they are only a few yrs apart.
That being said, I can't go cold turkey on 3-pedal cars. I'll alway own more manuals and prob 1-2max modern dct's. And, RajDatta, I can see why the 997.2 Gt3 didn't get much use, but the leap in driving experience with a 997.2 3rs is not subtle. The 3.8rs is one of most amazing driving experiences money can buy and I wouldn't put the 3.8 Gt3 anywhere on my top 20. Don't drive a 997.2 rs unless you are prepared to buy one.
03-29-2017, 12:17 AM
#32
Instructor
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 209
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PDK for me since I use these cars as track toys.
I would pick manual if I didn't track them, but then again, I wouldn't buy this type of car if I didn't track it. Street driving is so mundane, having something to do with your left foot and right hand makes it a bit more interesting.
I've discovered that most 'hardcore' manual guys actually have no clue how to heel toe or suck at it. When they actually nail the blip once in a while, it's somehow 'magical'. If you really know how to heel/toe, it's muscle memory at that point. It adds nothing to the experience. My level of 'involvement' is no different between a manual or pdk on track. Shifting takes up minuscule bandwith. It's the application of the brake, throttle, and the steering wheel in a corner that really takes up all the bandwith. Shifting is done in straight line before the corner. Not much going on then.
I would pick manual if I didn't track them, but then again, I wouldn't buy this type of car if I didn't track it. Street driving is so mundane, having something to do with your left foot and right hand makes it a bit more interesting.
I've discovered that most 'hardcore' manual guys actually have no clue how to heel toe or suck at it. When they actually nail the blip once in a while, it's somehow 'magical'. If you really know how to heel/toe, it's muscle memory at that point. It adds nothing to the experience. My level of 'involvement' is no different between a manual or pdk on track. Shifting takes up minuscule bandwith. It's the application of the brake, throttle, and the steering wheel in a corner that really takes up all the bandwith. Shifting is done in straight line before the corner. Not much going on then.
I'm not planning to upgrade to the 991.2 GT3 given it's not enough of a step change for me, but if I was, I would still pick PDK-S. Spending $150-200K on a sports car that I also track occasionally means I want it all: visceral driving experience, high performance due to technical capability when driving fast on a track, and relative comfort to drive on the streets (including in traffic). One thing I really don't like a manual transmission for is stop and go traffic during rush hour.
03-29-2017, 10:36 AM
#33
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
I completely agree with you, especially your 2nd paragraph about "hardcore" manual guys. I also agree that after you master heel and toe downshifting technique on a race track, it loses its novelty. It just becomes another thing you have to do to stay safe and not over stress your transmission/engine. Like you, I would rather concentrate on those other things: braking points, steering/hitting the apex, and throttling out. And with how fast these cars can go, doing all those things safely and correctly is already a challenge. If/when I track my BMW again with a stick shift, I know I'll enjoy it too, but the pace is slower, which fits with using a manual transmission more, IMO.
When you are in the steep part of the curve, you assume PDK proponents give up on heel/toe because PDK is easier. I'm sure that happens some because >50% of "intermediate/advanced" track drivers really don't heel-toe all that well. However, there's also a group of very experienced drivers who can heel-toe subconsciously and don't see the challenge/intrigue in having to do something that is not difficult to do.
I agree that on the street at moderate speed, a manual is more fun because the environment is so much less interesting. However, I find driving a manual Mini or Miata or similar on the street is actually more fun because you can toss it around at moderate speed without putting others at risk.
I'm sure there are plenty of exceptions - very advanced drivers who just, plain prefer a manual for the overall experience.
03-29-2017, 10:40 AM
#34
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
This is really interesting data. If you look at the straight "manual vs. pdk" poll, it's 60% manual, but if you ask those who actually have experience with PDK-S with the current GT3, it more than reverses to 66% PDK.
03-29-2017, 12:41 PM
#35
Nordschleife Master
I am not sure if you've made your poll public. There's an option to do that when opening a poll. It tells you and everyone else the username that voted. Now even though I've contributed to this thread I haven't voted,it's not interesting to me at this point,but I did experience pdk-s on the street and track. I am obviously biased,but in reality there's nothing special about pdk-s. It's just a very fast,smooth automatic transmission,that lets the driver send a request to a computer in order to shift. It's still just a nanny. If you're an obsessed track driver I recommend it. It will help you be faster on the track. But what some continue to fail understanding is that not everyone has some sort of ego when visiting a track. Some will go for the experience of driving close to their limits in a controlled environment without constantly checking for cops. Of course that after a few track days you'll be thinking : " was I faster this time ? " And in time you will try to achieve that. That doesn't mean your ego will suffer from not winning the DE.
Now when it comes to heel and toe : I've said it in the past...it is not needed in most situations on the street,even when driving somewhat spirited...you will simply not upset the balance enough to cause a spin or anything of sorts. Of course it's a good idea to do it if you want to be sympathetic to your driveline. It is however necessary when driving on a track or very spiritedly on the street.
Obviously I concur I'm just a " hardcore manual " poseur and I pretty much suck at doing it. Many are like me and we just like to look " more manly " on a public Internet forum. It gives us great pleasure!
And there goes the point : if heel and toe becomes second nature,same goes for braking points,steering inputs and track layout. So why do we go if it's not fun anymore? Well it is fun and the more actions you have to coordinate and execute,the more involved you immerse yourself in the experience.
Now when it comes to heel and toe : I've said it in the past...it is not needed in most situations on the street,even when driving somewhat spirited...you will simply not upset the balance enough to cause a spin or anything of sorts. Of course it's a good idea to do it if you want to be sympathetic to your driveline. It is however necessary when driving on a track or very spiritedly on the street.
Obviously I concur I'm just a " hardcore manual " poseur and I pretty much suck at doing it. Many are like me and we just like to look " more manly " on a public Internet forum. It gives us great pleasure!
And there goes the point : if heel and toe becomes second nature,same goes for braking points,steering inputs and track layout. So why do we go if it's not fun anymore? Well it is fun and the more actions you have to coordinate and execute,the more involved you immerse yourself in the experience.
Last edited by neanicu; 03-29-2017 at 01:02 PM.
03-29-2017, 03:57 PM
#37
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
And there goes the point : if heel and toe becomes second nature,same goes for braking points,steering inputs and track layout. So why do we go if it's not fun anymore? Well it is fun and the more actions you have to coordinate and execute,the more involved you immerse yourself in the experience.
I'm not saying this to be a jerk, I'm saying it to try to indicate a subtle difference that is important in terms of perspective on shifting depending on where we all are on the crazy life/driving journey.
Braking, turning and throttle application are completely dynamic in the contribution to going faster (it's literally a constant series of minute adjustments to feel for available grip, add a bit more throttle, unload a bit more steering angle, etc.). Getting that dynamic right IS the whole enchilada and shifting, with a few exceptions, is not a contributing factor (after a certain skill level is achieved).
Braking, turning and throttle application mid-corner are NEVER completely intuitive and automatic. They always require iterative adjustment to maximize the dynamic, and the dynamic changes as tires warm up, air temps change, etc.
Once you've mastered the intermediate skill of downshifting and not upsetting the chassis on corner entry, you've hit the peak in terms of contribution of shift skill to driving dynamics. You can't shift "better" once you've got it. You can always improve the timing of your braking, corner entry, precise control of rotation and throttle application - those are never perfect or easy (or automatic). And it gets harder and harder to get it right as you go faster and faster.
However, for a beginner/intermediate driver, the situation is nearly the reverse. The shifting is such a challenge, that they don't have much mind-share to work on true driving dynamics. That's fine, it's part of the learning curve, but the curve changes once you've got it.
It's also a step function. For example, it's almost impossible to work on trailbraking until AFTER you perfect heel/toe. The reason is because trailbraking requires getting both the timing and the brake pressure release as you build lateral forces just right. That's really hard to do when you are focused on getting your throttle blip right.
In certain situations for advanced drivers, having to shift does remove some of your ability to get the driving dynamics right because there is "so much going on." For example, T6 at VIR requires aggressive trailbraking, downshifting and perfect grip management between braking and steering angle to get it just right. In unique circumstances like this where you really need to get the "driving" part right, I will create a work around to free up mind share and minimize hand movements. For example, I downshift once coming down the hill, get my trailbraking done with both hands on the wheel and then downshift again quickly right before turn-in for Oak tree.
03-29-2017, 04:15 PM
#38
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by Earlierapex
Neanicu, your statements very clearly illustrate my point and indicate that you don't have a lot of experience at advanced track driving (which is fine, we all have different areas of focus).
I'm not saying this to be a jerk, I'm saying it to try to indicate a subtle difference that is important in terms of perspective on shifting depending on where we all are on the crazy life/driving journey.
Braking, turning and throttle application are completely dynamic in the contribution to going faster (it's literally a constant series of minute adjustments to feel for available grip, add a bit more throttle, unload a bit more steering angle, etc.). Getting that dynamic right IS the whole enchilada and shifting, with a few exceptions, is not a contributing factor (after a certain skill level is achieved).
Braking, turning and throttle application mid-corner are NEVER completely intuitive and automatic. They always require iterative adjustment to maximize the dynamic, and the dynamic changes as tires warm up, air temps change, etc.
Once you've mastered the intermediate skill of downshifting and not upsetting the chassis on corner entry, you've hit the peak in terms of contribution of shift skill to driving dynamics. You can't shift "better" once you've got it. You can always improve the timing of your braking, corner entry, precise control of rotation and throttle application - those are never perfect or easy (or automatic). And it gets harder and harder to get it right as you go faster and faster.
However, for a beginner/intermediate driver, the situation is nearly the reverse. The shifting is such a challenge, that they don't have much mind-share to work on true driving dynamics. That's fine, it's part of the learning curve, but the curve changes once you've got it.
It's also a step function. For example, it's almost impossible to work on trailbraking until AFTER you perfect heel/toe. The reason is because trailbraking requires getting both the timing and the brake pressure release as you build lateral forces just right. That's really hard to do when you are focused on getting your throttle blip right.
In certain situations for advanced drivers, having to shift does remove some of your ability to get the driving dynamics right because there is "so much going on." For example, T6 at VIR requires aggressive trailbraking, downshifting and perfect grip management between braking and steering angle to get it just right. In unique circumstances like this where you really need to get the "driving" part right, I will create a work around to free up mind share and minimize hand movements. For example, I downshift once coming down the hill, get my trailbraking done with both hands on the wheel and then downshift again quickly right before turn-in for Oak tree.
I'm not saying this to be a jerk, I'm saying it to try to indicate a subtle difference that is important in terms of perspective on shifting depending on where we all are on the crazy life/driving journey.
Braking, turning and throttle application are completely dynamic in the contribution to going faster (it's literally a constant series of minute adjustments to feel for available grip, add a bit more throttle, unload a bit more steering angle, etc.). Getting that dynamic right IS the whole enchilada and shifting, with a few exceptions, is not a contributing factor (after a certain skill level is achieved).
Braking, turning and throttle application mid-corner are NEVER completely intuitive and automatic. They always require iterative adjustment to maximize the dynamic, and the dynamic changes as tires warm up, air temps change, etc.
Once you've mastered the intermediate skill of downshifting and not upsetting the chassis on corner entry, you've hit the peak in terms of contribution of shift skill to driving dynamics. You can't shift "better" once you've got it. You can always improve the timing of your braking, corner entry, precise control of rotation and throttle application - those are never perfect or easy (or automatic). And it gets harder and harder to get it right as you go faster and faster.
However, for a beginner/intermediate driver, the situation is nearly the reverse. The shifting is such a challenge, that they don't have much mind-share to work on true driving dynamics. That's fine, it's part of the learning curve, but the curve changes once you've got it.
It's also a step function. For example, it's almost impossible to work on trailbraking until AFTER you perfect heel/toe. The reason is because trailbraking requires getting both the timing and the brake pressure release as you build lateral forces just right. That's really hard to do when you are focused on getting your throttle blip right.
In certain situations for advanced drivers, having to shift does remove some of your ability to get the driving dynamics right because there is "so much going on." For example, T6 at VIR requires aggressive trailbraking, downshifting and perfect grip management between braking and steering angle to get it just right. In unique circumstances like this where you really need to get the "driving" part right, I will create a work around to free up mind share and minimize hand movements. For example, I downshift once coming down the hill, get my trailbraking done with both hands on the wheel and then downshift again quickly right before turn-in for Oak tree.
However,your entire post just proves my point : pdk is just a nanny that helps you drive faster,which is the main objective. As a matter of fact,pdk is so good that you will actually be faster if you had left pdk in automatic mode rather than shifting with the paddles.
03-29-2017, 05:57 PM
#39
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Earlierapex
Neanicu, your statements very clearly illustrate my point and indicate that you don't have a lot of experience at advanced track driving (which is fine, we all have different areas of focus).
I'm not saying this to be a jerk, I'm saying it to try to indicate a subtle difference that is important in terms of perspective on shifting depending on where we all are on the crazy life/driving journey.
Braking, turning and throttle application are completely dynamic in the contribution to going faster (it's literally a constant series of minute adjustments to feel for available grip, add a bit more throttle, unload a bit more steering angle, etc.). Getting that dynamic right IS the whole enchilada and shifting, with a few exceptions, is not a contributing factor (after a certain skill level is achieved).
Braking, turning and throttle application mid-corner are NEVER completely intuitive and automatic. They always require iterative adjustment to maximize the dynamic, and the dynamic changes as tires warm up, air temps change, etc.
Once you've mastered the intermediate skill of downshifting and not upsetting the chassis on corner entry, you've hit the peak in terms of contribution of shift skill to driving dynamics. You can't shift "better" once you've got it. You can always improve the timing of your braking, corner entry, precise control of rotation and throttle application - those are never perfect or easy (or automatic). And it gets harder and harder to get it right as you go faster and faster.
However, for a beginner/intermediate driver, the situation is nearly the reverse. The shifting is such a challenge, that they don't have much mind-share to work on true driving dynamics. That's fine, it's part of the learning curve, but the curve changes once you've got it.
It's also a step function. For example, it's almost impossible to work on trailbraking until AFTER you perfect heel/toe. The reason is because trailbraking requires getting both the timing and the brake pressure release as you build lateral forces just right. That's really hard to do when you are focused on getting your throttle blip right.
In certain situations for advanced drivers, having to shift does remove some of your ability to get the driving dynamics right because there is "so much going on." For example, T6 at VIR requires aggressive trailbraking, downshifting and perfect grip management between braking and steering angle to get it just right. In unique circumstances like this where you really need to get the "driving" part right, I will create a work around to free up mind share and minimize hand movements. For example, I downshift once coming down the hill, get my trailbraking done with both hands on the wheel and then downshift again quickly right before turn-in for Oak tree.
I'm not saying this to be a jerk, I'm saying it to try to indicate a subtle difference that is important in terms of perspective on shifting depending on where we all are on the crazy life/driving journey.
Braking, turning and throttle application are completely dynamic in the contribution to going faster (it's literally a constant series of minute adjustments to feel for available grip, add a bit more throttle, unload a bit more steering angle, etc.). Getting that dynamic right IS the whole enchilada and shifting, with a few exceptions, is not a contributing factor (after a certain skill level is achieved).
Braking, turning and throttle application mid-corner are NEVER completely intuitive and automatic. They always require iterative adjustment to maximize the dynamic, and the dynamic changes as tires warm up, air temps change, etc.
Once you've mastered the intermediate skill of downshifting and not upsetting the chassis on corner entry, you've hit the peak in terms of contribution of shift skill to driving dynamics. You can't shift "better" once you've got it. You can always improve the timing of your braking, corner entry, precise control of rotation and throttle application - those are never perfect or easy (or automatic). And it gets harder and harder to get it right as you go faster and faster.
However, for a beginner/intermediate driver, the situation is nearly the reverse. The shifting is such a challenge, that they don't have much mind-share to work on true driving dynamics. That's fine, it's part of the learning curve, but the curve changes once you've got it.
It's also a step function. For example, it's almost impossible to work on trailbraking until AFTER you perfect heel/toe. The reason is because trailbraking requires getting both the timing and the brake pressure release as you build lateral forces just right. That's really hard to do when you are focused on getting your throttle blip right.
In certain situations for advanced drivers, having to shift does remove some of your ability to get the driving dynamics right because there is "so much going on." For example, T6 at VIR requires aggressive trailbraking, downshifting and perfect grip management between braking and steering angle to get it just right. In unique circumstances like this where you really need to get the "driving" part right, I will create a work around to free up mind share and minimize hand movements. For example, I downshift once coming down the hill, get my trailbraking done with both hands on the wheel and then downshift again quickly right before turn-in for Oak tree.
03-29-2017, 07:02 PM
#40
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
I've never pretended to be some track God and my ego is very very small. The best part is that I can live with it. Leaving the track in one piece as rarely as I go is far more important than shaving seconds. But not everyone's like me and that's ok too,I don't judge. If your goal is having the best time of the day,go right ahead...pdk will help you that!
http://www.evo.co.uk/porsche/911/133...vs-pdk-gearbox
PDK will help in a drag race with the launch, but not really a road course. There's a very slight improvement in acceleration due to faster shift times on the straights, but that's it. Overall, I would bet PDK might be good for a quarter to a half second on a standard road course with an expert driver (maybe, prob less than that).
Once you are an expert with heel/toe, it's no longer interesting or challenging. It's just something you have to do. It's like holding the accelerator to the floor on the straights. There's no skill or challenge involved and no way to make it "better", so it's easy to just let the car do it.
Now, a beginner/intermediate driver who is not an expert at heel/toe will be MUCH faster with PDK because the poor shifting causes him to miss brake points and corner entry speeds.
As far as nannies go, ABS actually contributes far more to lap times for an expert driver than PDK. Repeated threshhold braking without ABS with sticky tires is extremely difficult to master (vs. heel/toe which is pretty easy). The closer you get to the edge, the more tires you will flatspot. Consequently, you have to stay 10% to 15% "inside" the true threshhold without ABS. With ABS, you just slam the middle pedal and let the computer "nanny" for you.
03-29-2017, 08:01 PM
#41
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by Earlierapex
I'm clearly not making my point very well - sorry about that! My bad. My point is just the reverse of what you state - PDK doesn't make you faster because shifting is not a major contributor to lap times once you do it well. This article proves this point - the manual car road lap time is actually slightly better than PDK (manual car a little better equipped, but still):
http://www.evo.co.uk/porsche/911/133...vs-pdk-gearboxNo, actually just the reverse..
http://www.evo.co.uk/porsche/911/133...vs-pdk-gearboxNo, actually just the reverse..
What's the point of pdk if the above were true,besides the fact that it eliminates a driver's input,that he/she does not need to be concerned with...which is shifting? I fully understand that at that point you can concentrate on other aspects of track driving,but that doesn't eliminate one simple fact : YOU DO NOT NEED TO SHIFT ANYMORE,which means less things to do...which is easier...FACT! There's no denying that!
Originally Posted by Earlierapex
No, actually just the reverse. You've totally missed my point completely (likely because I did a poor job of explaining). Shifting "better" doesn't make you faster at the track once you know how to shift well! There's no way to improve any aspect of corner entry speed or braking by shifting better - it's not a contributing factor at all. You get exactly the same results in every respect if you hit the brakes hard at the end of the back straight and downshift from 5th to 3rd with heel/toe or with PDK. PDK adds no value whatsoever to 95% of the shifting on the track.
PDK will help in a drag race with the launch, but not really a road course. There's a very slight improvement in acceleration due to faster shift times on the straights, but that's it. Overall, I would bet PDK might be good for a quarter to a half second on a standard road course with an expert driver (maybe, prob less than that).
Once you are an expert with heel/toe, it's no longer interesting or challenging. It's just something you have to do. It's like holding the accelerator to the floor on the straights. There's no skill or challenge involved and no way to make it "better", so it's easy to just let the car do it.
Now, a beginner/intermediate driver who is not an expert at heel/toe will be MUCH faster with PDK because the poor shifting causes him to miss brake points and corner entry speeds.
As far as nannies go, ABS actually contributes far more to lap times for an expert driver than PDK. Repeated threshhold braking without ABS with sticky tires is extremely difficult to master (vs. heel/toe which is pretty easy). The closer you get to the edge, the more tires you will flatspot. Consequently, you have to stay 10% to 15% "inside" the true threshhold without ABS. With ABS, you just slam the middle pedal and let the computer "nanny" for you.
PDK will help in a drag race with the launch, but not really a road course. There's a very slight improvement in acceleration due to faster shift times on the straights, but that's it. Overall, I would bet PDK might be good for a quarter to a half second on a standard road course with an expert driver (maybe, prob less than that).
Once you are an expert with heel/toe, it's no longer interesting or challenging. It's just something you have to do. It's like holding the accelerator to the floor on the straights. There's no skill or challenge involved and no way to make it "better", so it's easy to just let the car do it.
Now, a beginner/intermediate driver who is not an expert at heel/toe will be MUCH faster with PDK because the poor shifting causes him to miss brake points and corner entry speeds.
As far as nannies go, ABS actually contributes far more to lap times for an expert driver than PDK. Repeated threshhold braking without ABS with sticky tires is extremely difficult to master (vs. heel/toe which is pretty easy). The closer you get to the edge, the more tires you will flatspot. Consequently, you have to stay 10% to 15% "inside" the true threshhold without ABS. With ABS, you just slam the middle pedal and let the computer "nanny" for you.
03-29-2017, 09:38 PM
#42
Nordschleife Master
Earlierapex, you're wasting your time. Trying to convince neanicu that PDK makes sense for SOME of us is like trying to convince an anti-vaccer that they are wrong or trying to convince a liberal that conservative views can make sense. It's a futile and impossible effort.
Back when I had a boxster spyder, it was a manual and my buddy had a PDK version. On the same track at the same time we would be running pretty much head to head the same. Data showed no advantage or disadvantage between manual and PDK. We now share a GT3 together and our lap times are still only 0.2-0.5 seconds apart. Like I said before, manual zealots are almost always guys that can't drive. It's really interesting. You'd think it would be the other way around, but all the good manual drivers that try out PDK always pick PDK. The Dunning Kruger effect plays a large role in all of this...
Back when I had a boxster spyder, it was a manual and my buddy had a PDK version. On the same track at the same time we would be running pretty much head to head the same. Data showed no advantage or disadvantage between manual and PDK. We now share a GT3 together and our lap times are still only 0.2-0.5 seconds apart. Like I said before, manual zealots are almost always guys that can't drive. It's really interesting. You'd think it would be the other way around, but all the good manual drivers that try out PDK always pick PDK. The Dunning Kruger effect plays a large role in all of this...
03-29-2017, 09:40 PM
#43
Rennlist Member
What a bunch of baloney! We're all humans and never perfect. You may be "expert" at heel-toe shifting, but you will still screw up. If shifting a manual becomes so mundane that it's easy and actually faster then the Pros would still be using manuals. They've moved the autos to allow the driver to focus on traffic and other aspects of driving fast. That's fine and dandy when you're racing and want the fastest possible shift times, but it doesn't diminish the added involvement of a manual. If you're an expert and manual shifting isn't a challenge, why do you see folks (pros included) shifting more with PDKs? Different strokes for different folks. Simplifying the driving demands to allow more focus elsewhere is great if that's what you want. I experienced it and I can see how that's fun. I also like the engagement of driving a manual on track, even if it is slower.
Two simple ways to get faster at the track. Improve your car or improve yourself. I find the later to be more rewarding.
Two simple ways to get faster at the track. Improve your car or improve yourself. I find the later to be more rewarding.
03-29-2017, 09:58 PM
#44
Rennlist Member
03-29-2017, 10:03 PM
#45
You guys remind me of the Miller Lite commercials...Great taste vs less filling
Celebrate the fact that Porsche is giving us choice... both are fantastic; buy what you like cuz its your money...heck, buy both if you like (certainly lots of guys here that can easily afford to)
Its like PTS...you get to customize it to your desires, don't need affirmation that you made the "right" choice
Celebrate the fact that Porsche is giving us choice... both are fantastic; buy what you like cuz its your money...heck, buy both if you like (certainly lots of guys here that can easily afford to)
Its like PTS...you get to customize it to your desires, don't need affirmation that you made the "right" choice