orthojoe

You're right, even an expert can screw it up once in a while. Explain to me how screwing it up is somehow rewarding and involving? It's purely muscle memory, nothing more. Managing a corner is not muscle memory.

I don't think anybody here has said a manual is faster, so I'm not sure where you're coming from there.

There are more PDK shifts because the gearing ratios are shorter.

Best lap times between PDK and manual with a good driver will only be minimal.

I hope you're not suggesting that by having PDK one can't still work on improving the driver, because that doesn't make sense either.

Let me tell you, there are PLENTY of slow drivers in PDK cars. It doesn't make them magically fast.

neanicu

I believe Earlierapex and I were having a decent conversation without trying to convince each other which is the better choice. He made some points,I've made mine and even though we've disagreed,I believe we have kept the conversation civil.
Now to your highlighted point above : I don't think this generalization helps you make a point. But that's just my humble opinion...

ranger22

Managing a corner involves adjusting your braking zones and turn in to match whatever grip is available. This means your shift points adjust and are part of the mix. Muscle memory huh? Well I for one appreciate the challenge of trying to never screw up. I guess I could do that easily with PDK.

PDK is faster. You guys trying to act like it isn't are fooling yourselves. In a 30 min session or a race it's often enough to equal a lap or more. If it wasn't dominantly faster, it wouldn't be what all the pros are driving.

PDK CAN be geared closer because shifts are so easy and fast. Don't have to allow longer gears to minimize the need for drivers to shift mid-corner. Doesn't change much, PDKs result in more shifting.....gearing aside because you can.

Far more slow PDK/DCT drivers out there. It simplifies the mix and makes tracking more approachable to newbies. Hard to argue that a PDK only GT3 hasn't resulted in a broader interest in the car.

Just think this giberish about bad drivers being manual fans it totally incorrect. Bad drivers like both, so what?

Oh and I'm still torn on whether or not I want manual or PDK on my new one. Still deciding.

theplanner

There is only 1 correct argument to Manual Vs PDK in terms of which is better, that is totally your chooosing.
We will all buy a transmission based on our circumstance, use, preferences, prejudice, ego etc etc
The better transmission is only becos YOU want it to be. I am ordering a manual but happily live with a pdk too. We are so spoiled by choices these days, but glad to have choices.

ipse dixit

This.

So much this.

orthojoe

LOL. Are you serious? You're aren't fooling ANYONE. When do you NOT try to convince someone that manual is the better choice? You are INCAPABLE of understanding of why someone would prefer a PDK. You can't even ignore a single post or thread on the subject. It's literally a mental disease.

I apologize for my comment on not being able to drive. I thought your self reported small ego would able to handle it. I love baseball, but I've got no problem with someone telling me I can't swing a bat to save my life because it's true. And I have a huge ego.

I think you misunderstood my comment. MOST of us are manual fans, including the good drivers. I'm a manual fan. I just don't need it in every car. I have one of each. I'm talking about the people that are so closed minded that they can't comprehend the possibility of PDK. Hence the term manual ZEALOT. Those people are usually bad drivers. Clearly you are not in that category because you understand the pros/cons and can entertain the possiblity of PDK.

I would disagree that a 30 minute race would put a PDK car an entire lap ahead given the same driver and gear ratios. If we do some simple math, on a 2 minute course, for a car to be an entire lap ahead after 30 minutes it would have to be 8 seconds a lap faster. That's absurd. PDK is maybe a few tenths faster a lap.

neanicu

I would normally take that as an insult,but coming from an orthopedist I'll take it as professional advice. Thank you for your contribution to this thread.

orthojoe

LOL!

mooty

i like the one on left

TL; DR' otherwise
my stick is bn legs it works great. some times too much....
i love pdk
i love cheating, from work to wife. i cheat.
what gives me advantage is great. my bike is below legal UCI wt. my race car is also below wt, sometimes i use EPO on long ride and have IV to rehydrate. what work so hard. i dont need challenge. i succeeded in all that challenge from kindergarten to 3 graduate degrees from some of the very best school. now i just want to relax, waste time, surf RL and eat chips while drinking premium root beer.

when i want to drive stick i take my pre 991 cars out. when i am lazy and want to surf while driving and evade CHP chasing me i take 991. it's realy really hard to text driving the 72 or 86. one bump steer i am 2 lanes over

Oldmxnut

The simple truth is ... as a 20 something blonde lass in a distractingly short skirt informed me, being taken for a drive in a manual sports car " feels sooo sexy and exciting " and "anyone can drive an auto" quote,.. un quote. When I queried a little more as to why?, apparently because it "looks and feels good to watch " .. quote .. Un quote !

And we all know we secretly value the appreciative opinions of 20 (and 30, 40 ) something hot blondes.

Drifting

neanicu,

I think orthojoe has a point. Nothing personal against you, but you are the definition of a zealot, i.e. someone who can't understand both sides of an argument. Sad in some ways because as a physician, you should understand there is a lot of gray in the world. Although we wish every patient read the textbook, every patient with the same symptoms doesn't have the same disease or if they do, they don't all respond to the same treatments........There is the Science and simultaneously the Art of Medicine.

I like manuals, but also enjoy PDK-S, similar to orthojoe. Nothing wrong with enjoying all the world has to offer.

Earlierapex

I'm with neanicu, let's keep this civil.

The definition of expert does not include the word perfect, that's your term (and you have successfully argued your point with yourself, but I never used the term perfect or even remotely implied experts are perfect).

Shifting is binary and discreet, you are either in the right gear at the right time or you are not. Therefore, it's relatively easy to be an expert because once you are in the right gear at the right time, you can't make it "better." There is a maximum limit in terms of improvement that is relatively easy to get to and impossible to improve.

On the other hand, turning, braking and throttle application are all continuous variables and are, therefore, impossible to maximize consistently. You can always get a little bit better.

I probably screw up a shift about 1x every full track day. I have NEVER hit every brake point, turn in, trailbrake release and throttle application perfectly in a single turn ever, much less an entire lap.

Consequently, my human shifting costs me about 1 second every 2 hours of track time. My human turning/braking/throttle costs me 1 or 2 seconds every MINUTE of lap time. The difference is about 2 orders of magnitude.

I've been driving for more than 20 years and racing for about 15. I've had coaching from about 10 different pro racers, not one has ever mentioned shifting as an area where I could improve lap times, none, ever. They mention brake points, taking a slightly later or earlier line, carrying a bit more speed in or a bit less, getting on the gas a hair sooner, etc.

If shifting is still a major factor in your lap times, then you aren't an expert. That's not intended as an insult - it's a function of practice and repetition, not innate skill or magic.

ranger22

I stand corrected earlierapex. Porsche says the PDK-S shifts in "less than 100ms." Since you only lose a second in 2 hours of driving due to a manual (upshifts included) you are incredible. No amount of coaching or experience would make me that fast.

Ortho was right to call out my example of 30 mins equaling a lap, but my point stands. The difference is enough to be notable over time.

To be honest, I'm not even sure what you're arguing. You seem to be hell bent on convincing folks that people who prefer or even like a manual transmission must be a crappy driver. I'd argue that's some weak self affirmation to make feel better about liking PDK.

That argument aside, I'm torn in the manual/PDK decision for this car. I think since I will be keeping my 997.2, that PDK-S would be a better option. Maybe I just need to accept the new tech with the new car. Then again, I've been there and was somewhat bored with dual clutch. I'm just glad to have choices and these decisions are much more fun than figuring out what you want to be when you grow up.

robmypro

That's the best argument for a manual I've ever heard.

orthojoe

Oy vey, you still have your blinders on. NOBODY has said that if you prefer or like manual, you are a crappy driver. Nobody. That is not what we are saying. I'm not sure how much clearer I can be. You took the comment the wrong way, got offended, and now you can't see straight. Most of us, including me, are manual fans.

One more time:
I am talking about people the manual people who think manual is the ONLY way to go and will only ridicule PDK and refuse to understand it's benefits. Those people usually can't heel toe and can't drive. The ones who can drive, but still think this way almost always haven't driven/owned PDK-S car. Once they do, they change their tune.

I think your perception of how much PDK buys you in terms of time is warped. At least you see now see it's not 8 seconds per lap. It more along the lines of 0.3 seconds per lap. 0.3 seconds is not anything to write home about for almost all of us.