Carl Fausett

Kinda what what I was thinking. If you heel into your corners hard, the stock cross-brace bends...

upstate bob

well, looks like you guys managed to ruffle Carl's feathers. question is, why? we're lucky he is in business, providing us with a needed service. if you don't want a logo, epoxy, sand and paint.

Carl Fausett

They've driven fresh-minded persons off the forum many times. Marc Thomas (Devek) was one of the worst. I hated watching the constant badgering that guy took for his novel ideas and development (often at his own expense). And when we lost DEVEK, the options a 928 owner had to choose from was further reduced.

Even among those who do not go out of business, 928 owners lose. Garrity at Motorsports put together a beautiful dual exhaust that is admired. X-pipes and Y-pipes too. But the 928 group is so pissy that he rarely checks this forum anymore, and has told me he will never develop another 928 part again. He's moved on. Congrats, haters - you lose again.

I just refuse to leave. Without another voice - you could just close the forum. All that is known is already on here. There would be nothing new ever again. So often these guys just regurgitate the same tired answers and theories.

Me? I like learning. Like to see and hear new things, even if I don't completely agree.

Rob Edwards

Here's an old brace from 2003, not sure whether the front X brace was just there for locating purposes while it was being built or not. Pretty sure it never ran in this 'full' configuration. The only addition to the Zombie that Mark says _didn't_ make a difference in stiffness was the crossbars they installed in the passenger seat area. So they came out to make room for an instructor seat.

hwyengr

To be fair, I wasn't trying to bash on Carl. I don't put Sparco, Brembo, K&N, etc. on my car. Dealer emblems get peeled off, and plate frames go in the trash. I took the contrast color out of my back bumper lettering.

I just don't like to advertise with something I paid for. Regardless of the company.

mark kibort

in 20 years of racing the 928 on all kinds of tires,im SURE ive "heel"ed into the corners as hard or harder than anyone. again, the proof is in the times carl
its actual results not theories here.

mark kibort

carl, love the product... if i wanted the extra weight and needed some bling, i would grap it ... . if it was lighter or the same weight i would consider it because i do like the look. BUT, PLEASE.. the zombie put those bars there because they removed a lot of material when they were reducing weight. this made up for weakening the chassis. other cars NEED Them too and they need to be stronger due to weaker unibody construction... IE like the bmw. i raced those guys that you were racing for many years. want to know how many subframes i saw break that had to be reinforced????? again, Anderson did it because he weakened the chassis with lightening, and before, he NEVER bent one.. why not carl.. if the chassis didnt twist, wouldnt Mark anderson running a full10- 20 seconds faster than you at road america, withi half the HP , bend the stock bar on 335 slicks???? again, lets be real here. Even Devek saw that the stock bar was perfect. Marc's quote was, "has anyone removed a bent one? "

FACT: I NEVER SAID we dont need the cross brace, but the forces are such in cornering or LIFTING the car that the cross brace works perfectly as stock. if it didnt, why do you can lift the car and not have it bend?? it doesn't and you cant provide more twisting forces than lifting the car with a jack on one side. go ahead.. lift the car... jump on it. put 500lbs more weight on it.... the cross bar WILL not bend. the cross bar makes a perfect box for the front unibody and doesnt need a larger bar or a bar underneath. any thoughts that you do, are unproven theory....

im not discounting the bar. it looks great, but its more for looks than function, "Please" lets be real here!

mark kibort

I have to go with Carl on this one. the bar is tastefully done. great company logo that is not "ricer" and its no different than the bremo raised letters or momo on the steering wheel, Koni, Moton, etc. if its the best component possible, I think its a good look for even a street car.

Mark Anderson

Rob I did run it in this configuration until I got the carbon intake. It did make the chassis much stiffer. This is not a guestimate. We measured chassis flex before and after each addition

Rob Edwards

Ah- didn't see it in the picture record. Maybe I should have asked....

mark kibort

makes sense... but here we see a lot of bars originating from the cabin area.
was the measurement made after or before the lightening of the chassis work was done?
The main point is not to say the chassis doesnt flex, the point here is does the stock bar work any better than something much beefier just across the engine top. I think all would agree that just that cross bar alone wont change anything. how can it... if it flexed to any extent it would be bent during racing and racing on slicks.
if you think about it... an uncaged car, can be jacked up to almost double full droop in front and the rear tire is on the ground. you put a cage in a 928 and the rear tire lifts when the front tire is only 1" off the ground. the cage takes the 100% wheel base and creates the flex point from the firewall forward. pretty short and there is a lot of chassis material there Plus the engine and lower cross member completes the structure too below, and the cross bar makes the box. again, its not hard to imagine the twising force on the chassis in a full 1-2 g turn , under braking or accelerating. if the stock cross bar doesnt move or bend with jacking the car up by the front pad , 2" above ground, i don think we can generate any forces to exceed that force on the road. i would think under braking would be the greatest force on the cross member. if it didnt compress under braking it would bend. if the chassis twists, its stretches.... just dont see how making it stronger does anything at all.

mark kibort

Im curious about the chassis test... did you compare it to stock cross bar with no supports below vs the modified set up, (with bars attching in several locations)
and was the lower cross member a part of these tests? there are so many variables on creating a valid test vs stock, i cant even begin to ask. so, what kind of test was it and were you comparing it too.
again, im sure this set up created a stiffer box area , but it also is tied into the main cabin . however the end result is to have the shock towers not flext and become closer to each other. the cross bar , stock or modified does this. if it didnt , you would have bent one. the other thing the bars do is keep both sides parallel ..... something that the single bolt on bar cant do, no matter what its made of. but again, withe cross member bolted to the chassis, the engine mounted on that, i dont see a lot of flex points that could make the chassis perform better certainly might make it stronger in a crash, which is sometimes not a good thing.

hacker-pschorr

A. You are not Sparco, Momo, or Porsche
B. If Brembo's biggest customers (like Porsche) asked them to lose the branding, I guarantee you they would.
C. Personally I wish all branding except for the hood crest was gone from the 928. I've "de-Badged" many cars I've owned.

My point? Listen to your customers. Something you showed interest in doing back in 2012:

https://rennlist.com/forums/928-foru...ml#post9856610

People WANT your product, just WITHOUT your name engraved in it. The cross-brace is a prominent visual when you open the hood, an aspect of detailing many people take very serious.

I'm seriously baffled at your reaction here considering you acknowledged the request to change it 3 years ago.

I guarantee you back in 2012 a lot of people saw your interest in making a non-engraved version and shelved the idea of buying one until you made those. You come along 3 years later stating your not going to do it and get offended when people are not happy about it?

Come on Carl......

You should do some research before making such a comparison to yourself. When I hear the word DEVEK I think of this thread:

https://rennlist.com/forums/928-foru...ader-sale.html

You may also recall they made a set of headers to fit the 3-post and 2-post heads. Something you claimed in a different thread should be impossible since the ports don't line up.

You sure you want to compare yourself to that?

You should also recognize the primary reason you receive such grief about your aluminum radiators is due to the reputation of the Devek units leaking.

I too miss the innovation and the positives they brought to the community. Sadly the negatives started to outweigh those and businesses rarely last long in such a situation.


Yes I fully understand there is a percentage of 928 owners who picked up their car for a Dodge Neon price and expect parts prices to be the same. That's not happening here, not even close. People like your product, want to buy your product with a small change......something you acknowledged 3 YEARS AGO and ignored........

I don't get it.

Carl Fausett

Hacker - I had long, long ago forgotten that post from 2012. Thank you for bringing it back to my vision.

Next time I queue up for making another batch of these, I will consider making a un-engraved batch again. At the rate these sell, it will be about 2 years. There is no money in the budget right now to make a second, special run of them right now. History has taught me that although 10 people say they'd buy them if they were not engraved, about 1 of them will. Especially given you could just take one to your local machinist and have him skim cut the engraving off.

Remember the A-piller gauge pods? I had promises to buy 85 of them when I went to manufacturing. So I had them made. 11 of the 85 who promised actually did keep their promise and buy. Took me 6 years to break even, 9 years to sell out of them.

No - we are not Sparco or Momo... but were they not small once before they got big? And did they not badge their products when they were small? They did. We aspire.

The DEVEK comparison was made without any value judgments. I am not commenting on their parts. I was commenting on the crap Marc and Susan often took, that in part, IMO, made them just say "F**k it". Like Motorsport has...

That said, Manufacturers leaving is not your biggest problem. Its posters and viewers.

When I started on the Renn (12/13/2001), there were over 300 people logged on and using the 928 forum at about any time. I have watched that dwindle to fewer than 70 most times, and Internet Brands has actually stopped displaying the number. I cant blame them. These lost users felt the constant bickering, back-biting and playground bullying wasn't "fun"; that the forum had become a cliche, and they weren't in it. We're here out of the common enjoyment of a vehicle we share. That simple thought is too often lost among the threads.

I hope you, and the other moderators, can stem the tide of those leaving (manufacturers AND users) and I think your recent efforts have been in the right direction. Keep it up.

mark kibort

well, it depends on the reputation and quality of the parts you are creating. GMG (my friend Jame Sofronas owner of GMG) takes 200k cars, right from the show room and bolts on all their stuff like car makes. the difference is that he is out there racing his stuff every weekend. The suff he makes, solves known problems and increases performance based on racing data an competition. if My car had Carls race proven gear on my car for example, it might be viewed differently. Devek had much of that going and made efforts to improve his race worthiness of his gear, Allowed me to test a lot of his designs and they worked very well. But until you get a marquee name with a lot of weight behind it success and marketing-wise, its hard to get folks to want the name branded on the face of it. When the stuff works in the racing relm, it will be demanded by the folks that want to buy it. Dont put the cart before the horse.. I think Eric is right on this one. make two models and have a sticker that can be removed.

as far as what brembo does... porsche emblems stilll shine on brembo brakes for their street and racing cars