"Singer" 928
08-18-2014, 12:18 PM
#136
Drifting
Thread Starter
Was looking at a Top Gear write-up of Pebble Beach, and they had a slide about Singer. The writer for the article apparently asked Rob Dickson (founder) about a Singer 928 and were given "a preview of exactly that. We're sworn to secrecy - for now - but if it all comes off it will be a truly extraordinary car. Pioneering, even."
Personally I doubt it'll happen, but it would be interesting nonetheless.
Personally I doubt it'll happen, but it would be interesting nonetheless.
the new character of the car.
As nutty as it sounds (Singer 928), it's not so, if you consider what he is doing with a $40K 964 which right now could be said to be one of the least collected 911s
(other than special models)
Because 928s were so expensive and Porsche's flagship model but are so affordable now and and still beautiful..
They are a great Singer fit and a better platform (debatable) for a super performance Porsche (interior space/comfort) than the 964 which gives up it's VW origins.
As i explained to them in my email,
just based on what i have been able to do with little effort and Very little money spent in comparison
to the same effort/same money spent modifying my '86 Carrera model the same way.
The 928 result was more a dramatic change in character, lightening the car really made it more a Porsche and it wasn't hard.
(The Carrera mod was expensive up front in that it was worth much more prior to cutting..)
If this did happen it will raise all our 928 boats as it will bring a lot of positive attention to this great Porsche model.
That would be really exciting. I hope they do it.
Last edited by The Fixer; 08-19-2014 at 10:20 AM.
08-19-2014, 12:41 AM
#137
Rennlist Member
I had a chance to see a couple of Rob's creations up close last week in Monterey. I was at McCall's for work and Singer had a small display in the back of the hangar. The detail and fit and finish on these cars is absolutely phenomenal. Yes, they are extremely expensive, but they are truly works of art. I for one would love to see them do a singer 928, but rather than sending the engine to Cosworth, have Greg Brown build a stroker with his exhaust. I'd be seeing what I needed to sell to buy one.
08-20-2014, 05:44 AM
#138
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My gut says that the whole Singer thing wouldn't work on a 928 -
With the 964, Singer have taken advantage of its retro-appeal in that the car never moved on from the 1970s. Therefore, their creations appeal to the nostalgia in us.
However, the 928 wasn't rooted in the past when it was launched - in fact, it had the opposite problem in that it was well ahead of its time. Perhaps too ahead.
In any case, I kinda feel sad for folks who yearn for any of our cars to be anything more than what they are. I think I'm what people refer to as a 'purist' - I only ever wanted to have my cars just as they came from the factory.
I only want them to be as fast as they already are. I only want them to look as they already do. So I have two cars that are completely original, down to the radio-cassette players and re-coned original crappy speakers. One a pristine garage queen (964) and one a fantastic daily driver (928). And it makes me happy as a pig in mud.
I would never want to own a Singer car, because to me it's not a Porsche. A Porsche is what drove out of the gates of the Porsche factory. Singer makes great artwork, using Porsche parts.
YMMV...
With the 964, Singer have taken advantage of its retro-appeal in that the car never moved on from the 1970s. Therefore, their creations appeal to the nostalgia in us.
However, the 928 wasn't rooted in the past when it was launched - in fact, it had the opposite problem in that it was well ahead of its time. Perhaps too ahead.
In any case, I kinda feel sad for folks who yearn for any of our cars to be anything more than what they are. I think I'm what people refer to as a 'purist' - I only ever wanted to have my cars just as they came from the factory.
I only want them to be as fast as they already are. I only want them to look as they already do. So I have two cars that are completely original, down to the radio-cassette players and re-coned original crappy speakers. One a pristine garage queen (964) and one a fantastic daily driver (928). And it makes me happy as a pig in mud.
I would never want to own a Singer car, because to me it's not a Porsche. A Porsche is what drove out of the gates of the Porsche factory. Singer makes great artwork, using Porsche parts.
YMMV...
08-20-2014, 05:58 AM
#139
Nordschleife Master
08-20-2014, 11:18 AM
#140
Chronic Tool Dropper
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Who was that character over towards Santa Monica that was obtaining 928's by hook or by crook, and doing similar paint and interior customization? The recreations were interesting. The way he obtained some of the cars was reputed to be questionable.
Doing this kind of thing to a 964 makes a whole lot of market sense. The more common appeal of that body shape is already established, and the availability of good donor cars is much greater than the 928 will ever be. Costs of existing aftermarket pieces and availability of existing talent makes them very sound candidates for cosmetic refinement.
---
Meanwhile, a show-quality paint job is six months and a hefty Visa bill away at any given moment. New interior is a few months of PC or Rob Budd work and another Visa bill away. Performance upgrades like engine suspension brakes are another six months and a hefty check to Greg Brown's wife away. But I really do like my car for what it was from the factory and how well it's aged. If I had a surplus lump of disposable cash to share with the paint shop, Paul or Rob, and Greg's family, I'm much more likely to buy an already-complete current new supercar, where the integration is already done.
The 964 really needs a lot of this stuff to make it modern. The 928, much less so.
Doing this kind of thing to a 964 makes a whole lot of market sense. The more common appeal of that body shape is already established, and the availability of good donor cars is much greater than the 928 will ever be. Costs of existing aftermarket pieces and availability of existing talent makes them very sound candidates for cosmetic refinement.
---
Meanwhile, a show-quality paint job is six months and a hefty Visa bill away at any given moment. New interior is a few months of PC or Rob Budd work and another Visa bill away. Performance upgrades like engine suspension brakes are another six months and a hefty check to Greg Brown's wife away. But I really do like my car for what it was from the factory and how well it's aged. If I had a surplus lump of disposable cash to share with the paint shop, Paul or Rob, and Greg's family, I'm much more likely to buy an already-complete current new supercar, where the integration is already done.
The 964 really needs a lot of this stuff to make it modern. The 928, much less so.
08-20-2014, 11:44 AM
#141
Administrator - "Tyson"
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Doing this kind of thing to a 964 makes a whole lot of market sense. The appeal of that body shape is already established, and he availability of good donor cars is much greater than the 928 will ever be. Costs of existing aftermarket pieces and availability of existing talent makes them very sound candidates for cosmetic refinement.
---
Meanwhile, a show-quality paint job is six months and a hefty Visa bill away at any given moment. New interior is a few months of PC or Rob Budd work and another Visa bill away. Performance upgrades like engine suspension brakes are another six months and a hefty check to Greg Brown's wife away. But I really do like my car for what it was from the factory and how well it's aged. If I had a surplus lump of disposable cash to share with the paint shop, Paul or Rob, and Greg's family, I'm much more likely to buy an already-complete current new supercar, where the integration is already done.
The 964 really needs a lot of this stuff to make it modern. The 928, much less so.
---
Meanwhile, a show-quality paint job is six months and a hefty Visa bill away at any given moment. New interior is a few months of PC or Rob Budd work and another Visa bill away. Performance upgrades like engine suspension brakes are another six months and a hefty check to Greg Brown's wife away. But I really do like my car for what it was from the factory and how well it's aged. If I had a surplus lump of disposable cash to share with the paint shop, Paul or Rob, and Greg's family, I'm much more likely to buy an already-complete current new supercar, where the integration is already done.
The 964 really needs a lot of this stuff to make it modern. The 928, much less so.
Not to mention the various iterations of the 911 that can be "easily" retrofitted across many years. Cars like this take the best transmission from one year, chassis from another, brakes from another etc.... The 928, this doesn't really apply.
A "Singer" 928 would really be nothing more than a stripped down, "Club Sport" with some fancy one off parts tossed in to justify the price. I'm not saying it wouldn't be cool, but not at the same level as their 911's.
With the 911 you can start with an ultra simple, super light chassis and install some much newer, more powerful parts.
The 928? There isn't that much difference between the chassis. It just isn't the same kind of project.
If they figured out some way to safely "swiss cheese" a 928 down to say......2,600lbs in street trim....that will get my attention and would justify the kind of price tag they put on their vehicles.
Things I could see them doing:
- Proper manual steering (I know there is a rack out there we could be using, need to find it.)
- 16V engine with super light internals with a high RPM....and possibly **GASP** de-stroked crank.......
- Carbon fiber fenders (all four) roof, doors etc...
- Chemically dipped chassis (like they do with the 964)
- "one off" super light wheels
- Ultra light one off suspension components
08-20-2014, 11:53 AM
#142
Drifting
Thread Starter
I agree with the above statements, and i too think of myself as a purist and enjoy my old Porsche simply because it's an old Porsche.
I don't agree that the 928 shape isn't retro enough. OB's are and with the headlights up it is very retro.
Singer could get it just right. There is a lot to work with.
That is the appeal of the Singer for the very wealthy.
People who have the money to buy a Singer could buy 2 or 3 new 911s and maybe they already have them.
They must want the old Porsche car thrill but with the modern touches and higher performance. They may just want something that the modern cars cannot offer. Modern cars make many of us yawn and for them anyone can lease one making them less exclusive.
I think that there could be a market for a Singer 928 if priced say at half the Singer 911 with the same performance or better. Because it is a Singer and would be magnificent,i think their customers may be tempted to own another of his creations. It could be an AWESOME car and maybe Singer needs to do something new to get the buzz going some more.
But then Singer runs into the same issue Porsche has in their product line up regarding the 911 always being top dog.
Being wealthy and into Porsches, It's likely many of Singer's customers owned a 928 back in the day as they were very expensive. Who knows.. They have stupid money.
Building ONE Singer 928 isn't a big deal for Singer and would probably pay for itself in terms of marketing the brand, (when it smokes a new Panamera) regardless if one ever sold.
It would simply be exciting.
2690 lb (but now with full interior and heavy 930 seats) 16V 928 with manual steering below Hacker:
I don't agree that the 928 shape isn't retro enough. OB's are and with the headlights up it is very retro.
Singer could get it just right. There is a lot to work with.
That is the appeal of the Singer for the very wealthy.
People who have the money to buy a Singer could buy 2 or 3 new 911s and maybe they already have them.
They must want the old Porsche car thrill but with the modern touches and higher performance. They may just want something that the modern cars cannot offer. Modern cars make many of us yawn and for them anyone can lease one making them less exclusive.
I think that there could be a market for a Singer 928 if priced say at half the Singer 911 with the same performance or better. Because it is a Singer and would be magnificent,i think their customers may be tempted to own another of his creations. It could be an AWESOME car and maybe Singer needs to do something new to get the buzz going some more.
But then Singer runs into the same issue Porsche has in their product line up regarding the 911 always being top dog.
Being wealthy and into Porsches, It's likely many of Singer's customers owned a 928 back in the day as they were very expensive. Who knows.. They have stupid money.
Building ONE Singer 928 isn't a big deal for Singer and would probably pay for itself in terms of marketing the brand, (when it smokes a new Panamera) regardless if one ever sold.
It would simply be exciting.
2690 lb (but now with full interior and heavy 930 seats) 16V 928 with manual steering below Hacker:
Last edited by The Fixer; 08-20-2014 at 06:13 PM. Reason: spelling
08-20-2014, 02:25 PM
#143
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I think it important to remember that the early 911s, which are getting done by Singer, are really simple vehicles....when compared to the inner workings of a 928.
Logically, I can't see a 928, being done to the level of a Singer 911, being cheaper.....the complexity requires more pieces and more time consuming....and the initial cost difference between the two vehicles, is a moot point, in the overall cost.
I think that both of the 928s that I did for Dan Hebert are fantastic pieces of machinery....unsurpassed by anything I've seen, so far. Both had many upgrades and custom features, both were "updated" in terms of performance, plus were certainly extremely clean. It's going to be tough to substantially improve those two cars, especially the turquoise car. That being said, one of the major details of the turquoise car was completely out of my hands...the interior. Although the workmanship on the actual pieces was very nice, the fit and finish of the installation was terrible....mostly due to the installation of additional sound deadening. I know that the new owner has been working on improving that part of the car.....which was one of the only shortcomings.
I've currently got an "early" car "in the planning stages" for a 16 valve 6.5 liter project....with all the goodies thrown in. Lighter weight, better brakes, increased power, better grip, improved suspension...with an entire litany of new pieces (many new pieces.....one of which is the stainless headers for the 16 valve application, which we are just finishing up.)
While I do not envision changing the body much (I'd like to retain the original lines), I certainly think that an "RS" style vehicle would have GTS flares and other small details, without destroying the visual clues that it is an early car.
This should be a vehicle along the lines of what Matthew has in mind, a true 928RS...along the lines of what Singer is doing for the early 911s.
Logically, I can't see a 928, being done to the level of a Singer 911, being cheaper.....the complexity requires more pieces and more time consuming....and the initial cost difference between the two vehicles, is a moot point, in the overall cost.
I think that both of the 928s that I did for Dan Hebert are fantastic pieces of machinery....unsurpassed by anything I've seen, so far. Both had many upgrades and custom features, both were "updated" in terms of performance, plus were certainly extremely clean. It's going to be tough to substantially improve those two cars, especially the turquoise car. That being said, one of the major details of the turquoise car was completely out of my hands...the interior. Although the workmanship on the actual pieces was very nice, the fit and finish of the installation was terrible....mostly due to the installation of additional sound deadening. I know that the new owner has been working on improving that part of the car.....which was one of the only shortcomings.
I've currently got an "early" car "in the planning stages" for a 16 valve 6.5 liter project....with all the goodies thrown in. Lighter weight, better brakes, increased power, better grip, improved suspension...with an entire litany of new pieces (many new pieces.....one of which is the stainless headers for the 16 valve application, which we are just finishing up.)
While I do not envision changing the body much (I'd like to retain the original lines), I certainly think that an "RS" style vehicle would have GTS flares and other small details, without destroying the visual clues that it is an early car.
This should be a vehicle along the lines of what Matthew has in mind, a true 928RS...along the lines of what Singer is doing for the early 911s.
__________________
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Semi-retired, as of Feb 1, 2023.
The days of free technical advice are over.
Free consultations will no longer be available.
Will still be in the shop, isolated and exclusively working on project cars, developmental work and products, engines and transmissions.
Have fun with your 928's people!
greg brown
714 879 9072
GregBBRD@aol.com
Semi-retired, as of Feb 1, 2023.
The days of free technical advice are over.
Free consultations will no longer be available.
Will still be in the shop, isolated and exclusively working on project cars, developmental work and products, engines and transmissions.
Have fun with your 928's people!
08-21-2014, 10:51 AM
#144
Drifting
Thread Starter
I don't think of the Singer 911s as RS models.
I have always understood RS and RSR model 911s as being lite, focused Porsches.
In the case of the RSRs, extremely performance focused Porsches. The original 2.8 and 3.0 RSRs are still
mind bending fast cars.
RS is not supposed to be well equipped..
Powerful well equipped is what the 930 crowd bought into back in the '80s. There was a back and forth over this w/in Porsche at the time re the 930
which many thought should e stripped down and not well equipped.
I know they are said to be lite, but i don't see how the Singers could
be lite for a early 911 having owned and lightened a 3.2L model.
To me these cars are more GTS than RS.
Porsche Rennsport : 1. LIte (THE Porsche Ethic, and major issue with the 928 for many i am sure),
2. Simply bare bones, no ac, no radio, no sunroof, a simple interior with only driver involvement in mind.
3. 10+% more power than standard (the more the better) but the lightness adds to the acceleration..so lighter, more power, better suspension, better braking. All enhanced more due to weight reduction.
My 928 IS a true RS Porsche, GTS flares would look great but weren't available in 1983. Besides, it is more slippery in the wind w/o them
just as a standard SC or 3.2L Carrera is considerably more slippery than the great looking 930s.. (Yellowbird)
For my RS I was going for early OB car looks, which is why i have put up with the ho-hum wheels.
Lite (17lb) 17" Orange OZs will replace the phone dials.
It needs more improvements for sure, but was an experiment to see if the car could be made lite enough for me.
So now that i like it:
I'm planning slightly higher compression (10:1), euro spec cams, improved intake (researching options) but same displacement (i don't want to touch the bottom end), Proper '80s RS seats, later S4 brakes (which i have) and more.
When done i may repaint it Arrow Blue but WILL use base-clear instead of single stage DuPont Imron which is hard to cut and buff. DuPont Chroma can be painted with my eyes closed. Imron is super tricky, you get one chance to get it down flat, and i did, but i want a deeper blue i think.
This kind of modification is great fun (THE hobby imo) and many here have incredibly well done 928s that i'd love to see more of..maybe a new thread?
The GTS flares will be on my 928 RSR.. based on a later 928
I have always understood RS and RSR model 911s as being lite, focused Porsches.
In the case of the RSRs, extremely performance focused Porsches. The original 2.8 and 3.0 RSRs are still
mind bending fast cars.
RS is not supposed to be well equipped..
Powerful well equipped is what the 930 crowd bought into back in the '80s. There was a back and forth over this w/in Porsche at the time re the 930
which many thought should e stripped down and not well equipped.
I know they are said to be lite, but i don't see how the Singers could
be lite for a early 911 having owned and lightened a 3.2L model.
To me these cars are more GTS than RS.
Porsche Rennsport : 1. LIte (THE Porsche Ethic, and major issue with the 928 for many i am sure),
2. Simply bare bones, no ac, no radio, no sunroof, a simple interior with only driver involvement in mind.
3. 10+% more power than standard (the more the better) but the lightness adds to the acceleration..so lighter, more power, better suspension, better braking. All enhanced more due to weight reduction.
My 928 IS a true RS Porsche, GTS flares would look great but weren't available in 1983. Besides, it is more slippery in the wind w/o them
just as a standard SC or 3.2L Carrera is considerably more slippery than the great looking 930s.. (Yellowbird)
For my RS I was going for early OB car looks, which is why i have put up with the ho-hum wheels.
Lite (17lb) 17" Orange OZs will replace the phone dials.
It needs more improvements for sure, but was an experiment to see if the car could be made lite enough for me.
So now that i like it:
I'm planning slightly higher compression (10:1), euro spec cams, improved intake (researching options) but same displacement (i don't want to touch the bottom end), Proper '80s RS seats, later S4 brakes (which i have) and more.
When done i may repaint it Arrow Blue but WILL use base-clear instead of single stage DuPont Imron which is hard to cut and buff. DuPont Chroma can be painted with my eyes closed. Imron is super tricky, you get one chance to get it down flat, and i did, but i want a deeper blue i think.
This kind of modification is great fun (THE hobby imo) and many here have incredibly well done 928s that i'd love to see more of..maybe a new thread?
The GTS flares will be on my 928 RSR.. based on a later 928
Last edited by The Fixer; 08-21-2014 at 11:01 AM. Reason: speeling
08-21-2014, 02:57 PM
#145
Instructor
I like the idea of a 928 with lightened body panels, improved suspension, slightly wider wheels, a bit more spartan interior and a slight power increase.
I don't really think it is necessary with a lot more power when the car is lightened and the suspension is upgraded.
/Mattias
08-21-2014, 08:40 PM
#146
Drifting
Thread Starter
The RUF CTR Yellowbird was based on a 3.2 Carrera body and not a 930, just because of the lower drag coefficient. The width of the rear wheel arches were slightly increased, but not as much as the 930.
I like the idea of a 928 with lightened body panels, improved suspension, slightly wider wheels, a bit more spartan interior and a slight power increase.
I don't really think it is necessary with a lot more power when the car is lightened and the suspension is upgraded.
/Mattias
I like the idea of a 928 with lightened body panels, improved suspension, slightly wider wheels, a bit more spartan interior and a slight power increase.
I don't really think it is necessary with a lot more power when the car is lightened and the suspension is upgraded.
/Mattias
This is a big factor in how Yellowbird achieved such a high top speed.
I couldn't agree with you more Mattias on what makes a great Porsche 928.
Best regards,
Matt
08-22-2014, 07:27 AM
#148
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A Singer 911 is finished to a high standard in all areas, exterior, engine, interior, suspension and so on. There are no gaps and it is a complete car.
Many times I have noticed that 928 owners who modify their cars focus on a few areas, but do not finish the 928 completely. This leaves the 928 looking unfinished.
If one looks at Porsche factory lightweight models through the years, none look unfinished inside or out.
Many times I have noticed that 928 owners who modify their cars focus on a few areas, but do not finish the 928 completely. This leaves the 928 looking unfinished.
If one looks at Porsche factory lightweight models through the years, none look unfinished inside or out.
01-22-2015, 10:03 AM
#150
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I'm a bit late to the party here, but I've been contemplating the same thing. My aesthetics would be a lot more reserved than what the OP has suggested (nearly stock "S", maybe GTS flares and LED/HID lighting, but that's about it.), but mechanically, sky's the limit.
Whereas Singer went with a newer chassis and made it look like a "perfected" version of the older cars, I'd start with an older car and just make it a specific blend of slightly modified "S" trim (without the full carbon fiber body of the Singer).
They also went with a very different engine, and this is where I'm torn. I'd really want to stick with an engine based on the DOHC 5.0. Power is an issue, and I'm not sure a performance rebuild with a Supercharger would carry the panache required for this market. Dunno...
Otherwise, full respray, full, tasteful "resto-mod" interior, specific 18" rolling stock, Porsche-based brakes (reds?), coil-overs, swaybars, you get the idea.
Total investment could easily hit $50K+. More like $80K, depending on the engine choice.
Could you sell a car like this, in limited numbers, in the $100-$150K range? Dunno.
But man, would it be fun defining the vision, building the "prototype" and finding out...
~Michael
Whereas Singer went with a newer chassis and made it look like a "perfected" version of the older cars, I'd start with an older car and just make it a specific blend of slightly modified "S" trim (without the full carbon fiber body of the Singer).
They also went with a very different engine, and this is where I'm torn. I'd really want to stick with an engine based on the DOHC 5.0. Power is an issue, and I'm not sure a performance rebuild with a Supercharger would carry the panache required for this market. Dunno...
Otherwise, full respray, full, tasteful "resto-mod" interior, specific 18" rolling stock, Porsche-based brakes (reds?), coil-overs, swaybars, you get the idea.
Total investment could easily hit $50K+. More like $80K, depending on the engine choice.
Could you sell a car like this, in limited numbers, in the $100-$150K range? Dunno.
But man, would it be fun defining the vision, building the "prototype" and finding out...
~Michael