lou951

I have an '86 944 turbo w/ the 23.3 mm offset and I have aquired a set of 18" turbo twist wheels ( I know all about the so-called Porsche's black list , I don't want to get into that argument ) sizes 18x7.5 and 18x10. Front offset is 50mm and rear is 65mm. Will 28mm front and 43mm rear spacers work and retain the stock offset?
P.S. I tried to log on and Rennlist would not recognize my Login name, Had to register again. What gives?

loud mouth

Yes they will, have them on my 951 with same wheels. You'll notice that nobody cared to answer your post because they rather stick in their 2 cents and tell you how 18" wheels are illegal. Illegal by who! Porsche? Since when are they police or law makers. I think that this forum is not doing it's job because the same little core group always has to bully their thoughts and opinions on others. I understand that some might want to let us know what the status is on some subjects, but others get offended when you ask such a question." Oh no, did he say 18" wheels on a 951, doesn't he know it's illegal and immoral, let's condem him" get real! Let's keep this form of communication to what it's supposed to be, casual conversation and the exchange of info, tech, tips and ideas, not your opinion on what is right and what is wrong!

marksportcts

I've got a set of 18" that I will be putting on my early offset '86 944. No wonder I don't get any replies for my posts.

Danno

Well, you know in certain countries with stricter quality-standards, it really is ILLEGAL to mount 18" wheels on your 944. Something in the TUV standards. Also the Japanese JIS standard has an impact/crash requirement for wheels as well.

Lou, as you found out, not only is it illegal and immoral, did you know that it's also fattening? And with 18" wheels on your 944, your kids will suddenly need braces and metal foil will mysteriously find its way into your microwave oven. So beware.

BTW, the Rennlist servers instictively know when you're about to ask this 18"-wheels-on-944 question even before you start typing, that why it canceled your account last time.

lou951

Hey Danno, you're right. My microwave mysteriously got foil in it and my kids got sick after I posted. Seriously, I understand that Porsche might disaprove certain modifications but I think that this so-called "black list" is just their lawyers covering their asses. I really don't agree with a company telling the car owners what not to do on 15 year old cars. Do you really think that these modern Jap cars can really handle 18" wheels also? I see them all the time with no problems. I don't see any black lists from Honda or Toyota. So I have to disagree with the "black list" strategy. It's my car and I do as I like as long as it is legal in my state. BTW, I never did get the 18" turbo twists, I ordered a set of 18" Simmons "OM" 3 piece wheels with the correct offset for my year.I found out why I got lost in the Rennlist Forum, the server crashed and killed me, guess it knew about the 18" wheels that I ordered....Peace

Adrian

Dear Loudmouth,
This forum is doing exactly its job when people tell you the truth. 18 inch wheels on all Porsches pre 1993 or 1995 is totally illegal in some countries, such as Switzerland unless a 911 Turbo from 1991-94. It is not illegal in the USA but the PCNA to protect themselves against liability claims by the families of crash victims run this list thing.
The facts about 18 inch wheels are this.
Porsche ran tests in the mid nineties on all models they had produced from 1985 to 1993. Every model tested except the 911 Turbos had major structural failures in the wheel suspension components. Porsche then issued a TSB to all their dealers and repair facilities across the world. In the USA, the PCNA added to this with the reporting of such installations.
Now you ask about other vehicles and 18 inch wheels. You claim not to heard of anything. I cannot dispute your claim of course but rest assured this is not just a Porsche problem. The Audi RS4 was never sold to the USA. Check out the 18 inch wheels problems on the RS4. Wheels collapse, suspension failures, safety recall. Production of the RS4 cancelled.
I personally make no apology to anyone for telling the truth. I have the data, I have the documents and this is what I share. As do others.
In the USA you have freedom to ignore the manufacturer, ignore the design specifications, ignore the design regulators and do what you want. Fine, no problem but you will certainly never get any encouragement from me or others on this forum to do so. Others will help you and so be it. The whole purpose of this forum is not to tell you what you want to hear but to give you a full range of opinions and facts and allow you to choose the right path for yourself. Hopefully a path in which you at least think about the safety aspects of your proposals. I am not worried about yourself. I worry about the unsuspecting who ride with you and other road users.
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4

loud mouth

Adrian, point well taken, but you failed to understand what I was stating. The opinions of those who bully their thoughts across is what bothers me. I understand that in other countries some things might be illegal. But that doesn't apply at all to what I was saying. Just think that H-4 unsealed beams are legal in Europe but illegal here, yet people still use them here including retina- burning 130w bulbs. There are many people in this site that don't run catalytic converters, yet they still drive their cars on the street. Do you feel sorry for all of us that have to ingest those carcinogens? Getting back to Porsche's studies on 18" wheels, they were tested under racing conditions cycling the suspension to extreme torsional and heat extremes. Extremes that would not be seen on the street. So that info must be analyzed carefully and the results taken for what they are. Remeber that the 968 turbo RS that appeared in Europe did have 18" wheels as standard and the hubs, spindles, and ball joints were not beefed up. I've been using 18" wheels for 3 years and 54000 miles with no problems at all. So I don't want you to feel sorry for me, but don't bully your opinions either.

belz

Hey Lou951, just curious .... why did you opt for the Simmons wheels? There are lots of choices out there and I'd be interested in what made you decide on Simmons.
Thanks

belz

My opinion only ... regardless of 16" / 17" / 18" / 19" wheels on a 944 platform I would encourage people who are tracking their cars or driving extremely aggressive to consider upgrading their control arms and ball joints.
The first year I raced my 951 (with 16" wheels & hoosiers)I snapped a spindle in half and at a seperate time sheared a ball joint. I was lucky in both instances. I was exiting relatively slow corners. So ... without preaching ... please consider beefing up your suspension components, especially when moving to more aggressive wheel sizes and rubber. (and check / repack your wheel bearings frequently)
"Father" belz!

lou951

Belz, I chose the Simmons OM wheels because of referals and mostly because I like that particular aggressive look. Another thing was that they offer any offset on their 3 pc wheels, which I prefer over using spacers/adapters. I ordered 18x10 rear and 18x8.5 front with 265/35's and 225/40's . Thanks for the advise on upgrading my ball joints and control arm. I was going to post that question. What do you recommend. Mind you, this is a street car which I don't race.

belz

Since you've asked and considering this is a street car:
Option 1 / Money is a huge issue: Stock control arms with frequent attention... paying particular attention to the ball joints.
Option 2 / Economical Upgrade: Blazak reinforced steel arms w/ servicable ball joints. replace ball joints annually.
Option 3 / Money is not an issue: Billet "charlie" arms with 19 mm ball joint
In all cases frequent attention to ball joint / wheel bearings / tie rods / alignment / wheel balance / general nut & bolt.
Note: the last time I caught a ball joint going south on the stock control arms I had the car in the air and I held onto the tire at the 3 & 9 o'clock position and wiggled it back and forth ... about 5 degrees of play.


My opinion only .... would like to hear what others think too

Danno

Yeah, I completely agree with Belz. I race my car about once a month and I inspect the entire suspension and brakes a week before the event. Typically things like wheel bearing grease/adjustment, brake-pads/rotors, or alignment will show up. I think I've had just one inspection in the past year where there were no service items that needed attention.

On the '86 951, there's a TSB on using 17" wheels with an upgraded caster-block. I would minimally do that upgrade. There are also some replacement ball-joints for the alloy A-arms available from Kelly Moss Racing that allow you to have a zerk grease-fitting installed so you can regularly keep your ball-joint well-lubed.

One final area that I'm attending to is the spindle itself. I'm having a spare set worked up with polishing, shot-peening and nitriding. When those are ready, I'll swap them in and get my original set magnafluxed/X-rayed and if OK, give them the same treatment and keep around as a spare.

Given the inexpensive nature of suspension components like bearings, brakes, etc., it's always a good idea to be a little too careful considering the very expensive or even deadly consequences of a failure.

Lou, good choice on those Simmons wheels. I almost got a set after I couldn't fine any Racing Hart Type-C wheels in large-enough sizes. Was originally going to get some CCW wheels like a lot of track guys, but I didn't like their look. So I went with a set of BBS racing wheels for the classic Porsche look. Got them in 17x11/12" sizes and they should be here soon.

belz

Danno:
How much will all this cost ($) and "who" does this kind of thing? A normal machine shop?
I have a back up set of spindles and have often thought I should be doing something like this. Not really sure if it's cost effective and if the results are really going to "improve" anything ... your thoughts?

Adrian

Dear Loudmouth,
In the end it is up to each individual to what they want, legal or illegal. I feel sorry for those who are put at risk by those who exceed the design limits of their particular auto regardless of make. Polluters also. We all have to share this planet. I do fully agree with the headlight issue. You may be interested to know that eventually any Porsche owner who runs around with 130W headlights is going to burn his wiring and connectors out. We just helped a RSA owner who was running 100/80 bulbs. Melted quite a bit over time.
Unfortunately many people use the road as a race track. These accidents I know are not investigated in the USA. Here they are and this is why the authorities have come down upon us like a ton of bricks, especially in the brakes, suspension and wheels and tyres issues. We can do all of this but with engineering approvals.
By the way Porsche tested all road cars on their test ground at Weissach. They were subjected to standard Porsche structural checks supervised by the TÜV.
The 968 Turbo RS which stands for Race Specification, is a somewhat special auto. The special 964 Turbos had 18 inch wheels as well. 18 inch wheels are not approved for the NAs apart from the 3.8RS which is built ona Turbo body and chassis. I still do not know what you actually mean by bullying people. I for one always clearly state it is your choice but I do not recommend it. Take it or leave it. If this is bullying then I remain a bully forever.
The comments since on checking suspension is really good and productive.
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4
944 (still in the stable but driven by my daughter and totally 100% stock except for approved 16 inch wheels installed)

PS: It was during the testing of the 964 Carrera C2 in 1990 that a structural defect was found in the front wheel suspension using just 16 inch wheels. I am glad Porsche put them to the limits. This is also another reason care is needed. I recommend that all Porsche owners subscribe or obtain the TSBs for their own model Porsche via www.alldata.com

loud mouth

Adrian, thanks for the info on testing, it was educational. I didn't mean anything personal, so I apologize if I came across that way.