stout

This is in line with what I've heard. Bad brakes are a deal-killer for me in any car...which may be part of why I like Porsches as much as I do. Trying to think of one with bad brakes, and coming up short. Even my 80-hp 914 came with 11-inch discs all around.

Has anyone ever bolted a pair of Recaro into a Model 3? Doesn't seem like lack of recline would be a bummer with four doors…

I suspect I may like some aspects of the Model 3 better than the GTI four-doors I had, most notably getting to ditch FWD and its negatives amidst its positives. Hm. But, as noted above, brakes are a non-negotiable for me in a performance car. It will be interesting to see if the Taycan "wakes" Tesla up on seats, brakes, and some other items while Tesla continues to incentivize Porsche to improve the Taycan's range, charging infrastructure, etc. I think this rivalry is a good thing...the new Corvette vs Porsche, in more ways than one.

daveo4porsche

even the Chevy Bolt as an EV has decent attributes - it's amazing what instant torque (and plenty of it) and a low CG does - I'm not saying the Bolt is great - I'm saying it punches above it's class - it's a fun/nifty little run about with decent acceleration, super efficiency and really really easy to drive - and has the best CarPlay I've seen in any car (screen size & quality) - my kids LOVE it and consider it the perfect "1st car" for the aspiring driver

I've even done some limited track time with the Bolt (it's not a track car) for a Teen Driving clinic @ thunder hill - both I and the driving clinic instructors were impressed - it's just such a well done little hatch back - kudos to Chevy on this product.

nearly all of hte "tesla fan boy's" on this forum own both Porsches and Tesla's (and or other EV's) and have found EV's to complement their fleet but not replace it - I believe 100% of them rate that as the BEST daily drivers and occasionally fun - but none of those people would give up their Porsches.

once you go EV it's hard to go back, but that doesn't mean you don't appreciate what you had - it just allows you to more precisely articulate which car you need for which purpose

I can no longer bring myself to buy a gasoline powered car for general normal everyday needs - I am still very interested in ICE cars for the same reason @stout articulated - it has to be an interesting gasoline car

I high recommend true auto enthusiasts test drive a Model 3 and Bolt with an open mind and realize what nifty nifty and very practical little cars they are - and the Bolt can be driving off a lot new for less than a PCCB set of replacement rotors _BEFORE_ any EV incentives, and the Model 3P at $55k fully decked out is the screaming 4 door performance sedan deal on the market…please don't compare either of these cars to a Porsche, for example I'm hard pressed to find a 4 door hatch back gas car that is nearly as good as the Bolt

the trump card for daily driver is the easy fill up @ home, and zero maintenance make EV's the perfect car to flog for point A to point B work with minimal fuss.

I have zero plans to get rid of my GT3 or my Wife's Boxster - although she will be first in line for an EV Boxster from porsche.

whiz944

Well said. I'll keep my ICE 2-seaters as long as I can. But for daily driving, it is EV all the way. My last two new car purchases have been, and any future car purchases will be, either plug in, or no sale. (Though my next may be another PHEV rather than BEV. I need to collapse two SUVs down to one 'rightsized' utility vehicle. PHEV may still be the way to go for a few years.) If/when Porsche comes out with an EV Boxster or Cayman, and can keep the MSRP in the 5-digit $ range, I'd be back at the Porsche dealer again with my nose to the glass. A $200k Taycan simply isn't going to happen.

Hurricane

I'm coming in really late to this thread but I just wanted to say to Stout, thank you so much for the detailed write-up! Fantastic job and the photos are amazing, too!

daveo4porsche

I'm very very hopeful they don't neuter the 4S too much in performance area and then I can swap my 3 for a Taycan - but yeah I can not do a 170k Turbo or a 208k Turbo S properly optioned.

Petevb

I'd say you should shoot for a Model 3 Performance as a comparison point, but let me know if a Model 3 Dual motor would be helpful. Plenty of free time to drop by these days...

I do wonder if it will prove to be agile enough. Stepping way back I feel like the Taycan's not leading the target. The Model S was introduced in 2012. Seven years is a long cycle for the automotive industry and a lifetime in technology. It only took Tesla nine years to go from the original Roadster (barely more than a kit car built in a garage) to the Model 3, a car that is still so ahead in so many areas other manufactures are going out of their way not to compete with it.

Porsche has just put down a marker: an ultra premium electric for others to aim at. It's clearly a great car in many of the ways we'd hope it would be. However as a platform for war over the next half decade it frankly looks vulnerable to me. The "Porsche premium" has been justified over the years by the technical superiority of the cars. Sure the 991 Turbo might cost 2x the Nissan GTR or similarly quick Vette but it was measurably better. But is the Taycan going to be measurably better than its competition over its lifespan? Reading the Model S's spec sheet one could argue the answer is already no, but beyond that Tesla short cycles: there are 18 different versions of the Model S so far and one can be sure a new platform is on the drawing board. My bet is that this Taycan S will be competing against a car that's half the cost, has significantly greater performance, ~2x the usable range (once reserve miles are accounted for) charges faster on a better network and doesn't give up much if anything dynamically or on refinement. In fact the Taycan is almost what I'd wish for if I was Tesla- a competitor that justifies a high price-point that I can beat. The Taycan could easily still find a solid niche, especially if Tesla continues to ignore driver experience, but in many ways it seems to insure Tesla will focus on that area to deny competitors a foothold.

You mention the Taycan as a game-changer. I agree- the industry is at an inflection point. But it's not just just the cars that are changing, it's the way the game is played, and I feel Porsche will need to step lively if it's going to keep up. I recall a conversation with a Porsche engineer some years ago when the Taycan was just on the drawing board. He complained that Tesla was subsidizing their Model S with investor dollars and credits. Porsche engineers, meanwhile, were expected to make their standard profit margins- a daunting challenge. With technology from the Model 3 able to move Tesla significantly further down the cost curve that challenge has only gotten harder...

Robert Quinton

Stout, any thoughts on PDCC and Rear Axle Steering as they seem to be expensive options on the Turbo? How about 14 way seats vs the 18 way? Were there any on your trip that allowed you to see the difference in seating comfort? Finally, Burmester or Bose?

MM3.9GT3

I don’t think Tesla can match Porsche at 1/2 the price. At some point, positive cash flow, and net margins will come into play. Porsche may have to reduce their gross margin, and net margin expectations to compete with Tesla on price (not match Tesla, but be within 20% on an apples to apples basis), or Tesla will have to increase prices to match Porsche’s driving dynamics, design, and handling.

NateOZ

My wife's 2018 Cayenne Hybrid has the worse brakes of any car I've owned in the last 10 years. It's even worse than her BMW i3 - I really don't know how they get it so wrong. It's marginally OK in Hybrid mode, but really bad in Electric mode.

I'm glad to hear the Taycan is better - I've always loved the 911 brakes.

Petevb

We'll see, and we'll see if Tesla even wants to play the game. However the way Porsche has set itself up in some ways appears to play into Tesla's hands.

Porsche charges for performance: if you want more speed you need to pay for it. Over the years Porsche priced its models carefully so that the GT cars are the cheapest speed followed by sports cars then SUVs and 4 doors. Many were surprised by the Taycan's price, but it fits neatly into that hierarchy just above the Panameras:



If you look historically these values have barely changed over the years: Porsches have gotten more expensive at nearly the same rate that they have gotten faster, so price/ performance remains essentially unchanged. Other manufactures, however, are not playing by these rules as the chart below illustrates:



Other manufactures are increasing performance at an exponential rate. Porsche, meanwhile, has chosen not to. There are many good reasons for this choice, but it leaves them with one hand tied behind their back in any performance competition. Doubly so where electric cars are concerned precisely because adding power to an electric is so much easier and cheaper. Consider the massive engine and ten radiators in the million dollar Bugatti Veyron, then consider that today's 100k Model S is already capable of making just 22% less power and that gap is decreasing by the month. This leaves Porsche a real problem: the Model 3 Performance is already ahead of the Taycan Turbo S's range, power to weight ratio (when not using LC) and charge speed, yet it lists for just 30% of the price. That leaves lots of money left for Tesla to increase performance further and close the obvious gaps to the Taycan...

Given this how does Porsche respond if and when Tesla (or someone) effectively puts two Model 3 Performance drive-trains into a single car? Forget for a second the chassis: you've got 1100 hp, over 500 mile range, call it 5500 lbs without getting fancy or significantly less weight (and money) if you pull some batteries out. The numbers suggest Tesla should be able to sell a car like that soon for ~100k, yet if Porsche doesn't change their pricing structure they'd need to charge ~$500k for a car with that kind of performance. They seem to be stuck between a rock and a hard place. That's somewhat evidenced by reactions here to the Taycan Turbo S pricing, and I suspect it will become much more evident as Tesla and others pour on the power. Motor power for the Model S has exactly doubled in the last 7 years. You don't need to project that curve forwards very long for things to get interesting, and it's not clear to me how (or if) Porsche will reply. I'm guessing they're in part waiting for customer response to the Taycan to figure it out themselves...

MM3.9GT3

Pete, I appreciate the well thought out points, and the graph. You are absolutely correct about how Porsche priced the Taycan Turbo and Turbo S. I am a Porsche loyalist, and a very good customer for them. But, I am a perfect example of someone who didn’t buy into that pricing model, regardless of my ability to afford one. I think the Porsche premium is way too high vs. the Model S P100D. Now, let’s see how the 4S price, and range compares to the base Model S 100D. In short, Porsche needs to rethink their EV pricing model.

worf928

I don't completely discount your, Dave's, or other Porsche-owning-Teslalytes impressions. But, I've not read your detailed professional reviews of various Porsches. So, I can't get a 'baseline' for what's between your ears with respect to Porsches as an anchor for your thoughts on Teslas.

On the other hand I have read Stout's reviews of various ICE Porsches and of course the Taycan. So, when/if he provides his thoughts on a Tesla I'll have good data set all from the same mental context that I can then translate to my context.

Needsdecaf

Youre moving the goalposts. First, it was:

Now I need to provide you a review history so you can judge whether my opinions are valid, not just own a good car? Well, I suppose there are a lot of poseurs that own them. But I doubt they’re on Rennlist.

If you’d actually like to read one of my reviews:

https://rennlist.com/forums/991/9925...a-s-owner.html

Drifting

Well said Pete, I agree completely. My Tesla model 3 Performance is by no means a perfect car, but it has completed ruined non special ICE cars for me. I have no interest in 98% of the ICE cars on the market. Not for a daily driver, not a weak NA engine in a regular car, certainly not a big heavy laggy turbo sports sedan/SUV/Truck. My Tesla Model 3 Performance is such a fun daily driver, with insane instant torque, a much smaller footprint and weight compared to the Model S or the Taycan as the M3P is 900lbs and 1050lbs respectively lighter than those two other electic cars. My M3p also feels chuckable. Not chuckable like my 987.2 Boxster S, but reasonably chuckable for a heavier car due to the smaller wheelbase and insane torque. Plus the electronics are great, adaptive cruise control, maps, stereo, and I love getting carpool lane access in California. Also I pay 75% less for charging than I would for gas (particularly in CA). I can carry a decent amount of cargo and 4 adults comfortably. I don't see myself ever owning an ICE daily again. But I also plan to keep a special ICE car around forever like my 991.2 GT3. Although I've really enjoyed my M3P the past two months, there is nothing like a canyon run, track day, or long trip on fun roads in my GT3!

Plenty of people who hate cars, or who stress way too much about the environment buy many of the teslas, just like a Prius. These are the people who purchase a base model 3, which is just annoying to drive given the relative power, brakes, suspension, etc. I'd never own that car.

Much of the superior dynamics of the Model 3 comes from the weight and dimensions. It's not such a huge, heavy car like the Model S or Taycan. The 3 is a foot shorter and almost a 1,000 lbs lighter than the S, and around a 1100 lbs lighter than the Taycan. The Tesla model 3 Performance is fun to drive and feels relatively light on its feet given the weight.

Agree bad brakes kill any car. The model 3 Performance comes with performance brakes, which are superior to the brakes on the other two model 3 options, but of course don't compare to GT3 brakes.

Regarding seats, I agree the model 3 seats aren't that great. I'm a bit crazy in that I installed 4 way 991 GT3 seats in my Tesla model 3 performance as you can see in the picture. Power works, seating position is better, and they grip me better in corners. Pic below. They actually blend reasonably well with the Tesla interior in black.

Pete, if you want to come down to LA sometime and drive my 991.2 GT3 and Tesla model 3 Performance (both with the same 4 way 991 GT3 seats) back to back, let me know.

Sulaiman

Apparently, it's wire only for now, with wireless to be supported later.


thanks for the answer