Needsdecaf

So, with all the discussion about a manual returning to the 991.2 GT3, and the rumors (now squashed) of the touring option including a rear seat, my curiosity got piqued. What could be more perfect than a wingless GT3 with a rear seat! My perfect Porsche. Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy my C2S Cab, but I'm always looking to the next car. I bought the Cab partly because I wanted my wife and kids to get enjoyment out of it. But My kids are 10 and 7 and only have a few more years before they won't fit in the rear anyway. And let's face it, a GT3 is mega.

Just watching all the release videos has got me salivating over the thought of that 4 liter engine screaming to 9k RPM, the race bred suspension, etc. etc. Every video review I've watched has just gotten me salivating over the thought of a GT3. Yesterday during our monthly North Side of Houston PCA cars and coffee event, one of the members rocked up in a GT4 and I really needed to scratch the itch!

There are a few for sale here in H-Town but most dealers treat them like unobtanium and you're lucky you get a seat in them, and heaven forbid you ask to drive one. Luckily, there are still some cool dealers in this town. I won't name names, but you can PM me if you want.

So I arrived yesterday for my appointment with no small measure of excitement. I honestly didn't know what to expect. Would I be finishing up the appointment asking for a trade in value of my car, and trying to convinve myself I could live with the loss of the rear seats? Or would I think that it would be a crazy beast, amazing but not really useful even as a weekend toy? I know that coming from a Cab, even an S, it was going to be a world of difference, but I didn't know just how different it would be? Of course, the exterior, to me, looks loads better. The wider body, the lowered stance, the more aggressive aero. The car looks super sinister and purposeful. Inside....looks like a 991. LOL. My car has full leather so this car was even a little lower grade looking than mine. I will say that this car had the 4 was sport seats, and I really liked them. I was afraid that I'd miss the extending thigh bolsters from my 14 way seats, but I didn't at all. They were far more comfortable, to my 6'2" and large framed self at least, than my 14 ways. I'd definitely get them in a future car. Otherwise, aside from the yellow needles, all looks similar to a PDK equipped, non-sunroof Carrera.

Oh, except for the 9,000 RPM redline.

The salesman and I got in for the drive. Starting it up, it sounded like a normal 911 or 5 seconds, and then all the cacaphony started. There's a lot of noise coming from the rear. Chuntering and small clunks. I understand that's normal. The engine sounds a bit angry and restless. Setting off at walking pace, the diff binds up a little bit. The ride quality is pretty flinty over small bumps and road cracks. Keep in mind, this is rolling out of the dealer parking lot over poorly maintained concrete access roads.

Once we rolled out onto some better roads and got some speed on, the suspension took a deep breath and relaxed. The ride at 30 MPH and above wasn't much worse than my C2S. In fact, even at normal commuting speeds, I could immediately feel that the car is far more tied down than any "normal" 991 Carrera I've driven (.1 and .2 both C2 and C2S). There's very little of the typical Porsche "nose bob" that you still even feel a bit in the 991's (certainly it's nothing like one of the air-cooled cars, or even the 997). The car feels otherworldly planted to the ground.

The car had a bit of heat in the oil, but not enough to cane it yet, so when we rolled onto the frontage road and up onto the highway, I left it in auto and let the car short shift. Well, short shifting for slightly warm GT3 is still about 4,500 RPM! The first thing I noticed was that the car felt much more responsive to the helm. The steering is much more communicative, plus the RWS must add some serious agility. I tried a few lane changes through moderate traffic and the car just moves all of a piece. It's effortless, like a shark gliding through a school of tuna. It's the boss, just waiting to pounce on it's prey. A highway cruise bores this car to tears.

Keep in mind, this is Houston. There are very, very few good roads to drive in a spirited manner. Unless you just want to do a straight drag on the highway. Very few twisty roads. I went a few miles up the highway, noting that the car's natural cruising speed seemed to be somewhere about 90....seriously. This car is so unstressed at that speed it's crazy. As I dropped down off the highway, I noticed the oil temp was finally climbing above 170. I popped it into manual as I pulled into the u-turn on the frontage road, and pulled up to the yield. The entrance ramp for the highway sat about 1/4 mile in front of me. Wait for the gap. Wait for it. And go.

I've driven a 911S PDK with Sport Chrono in Sport Plus mode. PDKS in a GT3 makes that car seem like a GM Hydro-matic 3 speed in terms of shifts. The speed at which the transmission swaps cogs is just otherworldly. 9k in first, then 9k in second and I'm up the ramp at speeds, well, let's just say that I was braking at the top of the ramp to blend into the highway traffic. The transmission, which was utterly smooth and non-offensive at slower speeds rips off WOT upshifts with a firm crack. The response to the pull of the paddle is immediate. Next to me the salesman says, "I never get tired of that, and neither will you". He's right.

I ran it down the highway a few miles, this time at a hotter pace than my first run. The car simply begged me to slice it through traffic. It was entertaining, but only for a moment. As I told the salesman, my days of passing cars with 30 MPH closing speed are long gone. There are just too many distracted drivers and even more lack of discipline than there was even 10 years ago. I popped it back into auto and sat back to collect my thoughts. I did want to check the car's responsiveness first, so I gave the throttle a good nudge while crusing in 7th at about 70 MPH. Instantly we were in 3rd and rocketing well into triple digits. I shut it down after about 3 seconds, or we may have doubled the speed limit.

I cruised back to the dealership and dropped off the salesman, and picked up my 10 year old. He was excited to not be waiting in the dealership any longer although he didn't seem too excited about driving in just a 911. LOL. I did a few hard pulls on the highway for him, but got off and headed for the one back road with a few turns in the area. This is in a fairly populated area, so there's no room for hooligan speeds, but there are a few turns where you can take them without braking in a high performance car. Time to get a feel for how this beastie handles.

It is, of course, otherworldly. This is a track bred weapon operating at under 50 on some back roads, so it's probably operating at, max, 4 tenths. And that's by taking a 25 MPH posted corner at 40 and not lifting. So not a true test for the car, but beginning to reveal it's nature. And that nature is just planted. The car is completely secure and tied down. I've driven this stretch of road in many, many cars. 911's, Panamera Turbo, M3 / M4, C63, Jag F type, you name it. It's the only decent road around and there are many car dealerships along the highway in the area. The GT3, as expected, is the most capable car I've driven on this road. That's to be expected, but it's the way the car feels that's just simply magical. The sense of control that the car exhibits must be felt to be understood. I've driven 993's, 997's and 991's and this car just doesn't feel like a 911. It feels, well, I don't want to use the "race car for the street" cliche, as it's not that raw. But the level of communication streaming back to you through the wheel and through the seat is simply next level. The super sticky front end combined with the RWS makes direction changes immediate, instant and rewarding. The lack of movement and flex from a standard 911 is palpable. Of course, I'm used to driving a Cab, but even vs. 997 and 991 coupes, the car is much more solid, planted and secure.

But somehow, even completely unstressed, the car isn't boring. It still feels like a 911. You can still feel the rear weight bias. The car is not working hard, but it's still talking to you. It's enjoying the workout, even if it's not breaking a sweat. You feel what the car is doing. The stiffer suspension is now flowing and the payoff for that low speed nuggety ride is a much more talkative experience at speed, even low speed. That chatty diff is now putting down power like a champ. Combined with the relatively weedy level of torque, you can slam the throttle home at the exit of a bend, even in second, and just ride that magical power curve all the way to the 9k RPM redline. Of course, 9k RPM in second is something like 70 MPH if I remember correctly, so you're not doing that too often.

The curvy section is broken up by a park, and some junctions, so it doesn't flow and all too soon I found myself merging back onto the frontage road to get back on the highway. As you can imagine a full throttle pull into traffic found me faster than the cars actually ON the highway, and I had to brake for traffic getting up the ramp. I did a quick run down to the exit below the dealership and cooled my jets as I exited and pulled a u-turn.

The salesman wanted to know my thoughts. My first statement was, "I'd lose my license in a week". That could be true, but I suspect after actually owning such a beast and having more access other than a test drive, I'd figure out the time and the place to properly exercise it. Be it through the hill country or on a track, there are a few places to take the car to stretch it's legs. My second thought was that it's just too much. Too much car to drive on the long, boring, straight roads where I live here in Houston. If it was in the North East where I grew up, in the Hudson Valley and the foothills of the Adirondack mountains, I'd have some places to exercise it more regularly. As it is around here, it really MIGHT be too much.

But just like I have a deep love for my daily driven VW GTI, I think I might quickly fall in love with the GT3, even if I didn't ever bring it on the track. And it's for the same reason, albeit at a different level. The GTi is just a hoot to drive. The car talks to you all the time, but it doesn't beat you up. Sure, full throttle gives you a bunch of turbo lag, torque steer, and a bit of front wheel burnout. But it's always poised and planted, and has a lithe feeling that makes it fun to commute to work in. Turn in is precise, you can feel the weight transfer at slow speeds. The car is your constant companion. The GT3 feels the same way. Even at speeds well, well below it's capability, it's always telling you what it's doing. It's confidence and capability is not coupled with aloofness. It's not inert. The M3 and M4, by comparison, give you a stoic shrug when driving at 5 tenths. They don't tell you much.

Hopping back into my C2S cab for the ride home gave me more to think about. Compared to the GT3, the suspension felt much less in control. There was a lot more movement from bumps. Reactions to steering revealed the lack of poise from the front end, and the absence of the RWS. Whereas before I rode in the GT3 the car felt super planted and controlled, now I could feel the compromise of the suspension. There was always an extra bit of movement from a bump or from an input that wasn't there in the GT3. The steering certainly lacks some of the communication that the GT3 has. The GT3 is closer to a 997 than a standard 991 Carrera in it's feel. And even in Sport Plus, ripping through the gears to redline in my S, despite only being down 75 HP, the car lacks that fanatical pull on the top end. 6k to 7,500 in the S is only half as thrilling as 7,500 to 9k in the GT3.

There is a bit more honesty to the standard Carrera though. Once I had about 10 minutes back in my car, could recall my appreciation for what it is. The standard 911 is a fantastic car. It's a joy to drive and a great experience. I didn't come off feeling like it was some poor relation to the GT3. it's still a sublime machine to drive. The suspension isn't as capable, but it's a little more honest feeling for it. A little more authentic 911, rather than super capable road racer.

So that lead to a little soul searching. What would my perfect 911 be? In all honesty, I really do enjoy the cab. Its a lot of fun to drive with the top down, and hear the car working (especially with the PSE). It's been 20 years since I owned a droptop and I forgot how the additional sensory input changes your experience of driving. Likewise, I can still put all four of us in the car to go to dinner. That won't last too much longer, but I'm enjoying it while I can.

The difference in powertrain is palpable. Even thought the standard Carrera S engine makes it's power up at the top of the rev range, it lacks the urge in the final 1500 RPM that the GT3's car has. I cannot even imagine how special the new 4 liter engine must be by all accounts. But, as you can see comparing power curves, in the lower revs, the Carrera S isn't too far off the mark. You really need to wring out the car to get the most of it. It's certainly rewarding to do so, but there are just not many opportunities to do it on the public roads. Plus, and I'm being brutally honest here as someone who owns a manual transmission 911, I don't know how you'd keep up with an engine that's even angrier than this one having to row your own. I'd love to drive one, or drive a 911R to see what you need to do to stay on top of an engine with this high of a powerband. You can see why the Porsche engineers are baffled that the buyers would prefer the manual to the PDK. The way the PDK changes gears and keeps you into the power has to be felt to be believed. It's just unreal.

I left thinking back to earlier in the day seeing that GT4 at the PCA meet. I imagine that in all honesty, the GT4 might be the perfect car for me from a driving standpoint. That incredible front end of the GT3 carries over wholesale, but it's got the S's engine so it's a little less frenetic. I'd just like the gearing to be shorter, same as I want it to be shorter in the Carrera S. Maybe the Boxster Spyder for the open top experience? Not sure.

As far as the perfect 911? I'm not sure. I love the GT3 chassis. You can certainly daily the thing, at least where I live. It's not super stiff. I love the increased communication, the poise and the alertness. And while I love the powertrain, it's just insane to think of how fast it is on the public road, and how you're constantly goaded into just wringing it's neck to get the most out of it. I'd want a little more low end torque, but don't think I'd want the compromises that come from turbocharging. And before you get on me as a turbo hater, two of my current 3 cars are turbo..one turbo petrol GTI and a turbo diesel Cayenne. And before that, my previous two daily drivers also had turbos. I've lived with them, understand them, and love their torque. What i don't love is the inherent lag, the heat soak, and the top end restrictions. Perhaps the new 4 liter engine solves all problems? I'm not sure.

I also lament the loss of rear seats in a Cayman, Boxster, or a GT 911. With kids, the practicality is just too much to be discounted.

Finally the transmission. I can't wait for the reviews of the manual 4.0 liter car. I know that the owners of 997 GT3 RS and RS 4.0 liter cars love the manual in it. But I've no seat time in those cars to see how they compare to the 3.8 GT3 engine or new 4.0 engines. Are they too frenetic?

I still think that a de-winged, manual, with rear seat 991.2 GT3 might be the perfect 911 in my mind. Perhaps one day down the road I might buy a Touring pack car (no rear wing, manual only) and add the rear seats from a coupe. I'm sure it can be done. Until then, I'll enjoy my Carrera S and keep dreaming about how awesome that run in the GT3 was. I'll remember it fondly.

subshooter

That write up took some time. Thanks for posting.

I think you need to get a 911R.

Johnny5Alive

I enjoyed your thoughts on the GT3. I went through something similar a couple months back and nearly traded in my C4S for one. In the end, I really like the idea of a 911 with a back seat. I have a little one who isn't old enough yet for it, but as soon as he is, he will receive a proper education on the 911 from the back seat. You can always do a few things to sharpen up your car. I've been planning on adding headers, tune and DSC module, and although it won't make the car a GT3, I suspect it will make it sharp enough as a kid friendly sports car.

I didn't know the rumor of a touring edition GT3 was debunked. I just told my dealer yesterday that if that car ever comes out to call me right away so that I can get on the list. He hasn't heard of it yet. I really hope they do come out with it.

Needsdecaf

Thanks! Can you send me a check for about $400k? Lol.

They confirmed the Touring pack, but also confirmed no seats. It's just a wing delete, manual only and some different trim.

This drive had me thinking about DSC no doubt.

digistyl3

Awesome write up!

I think I'm in the same boat as you. I would consider replacing both my GT4 and C2S with a GT3 having rear seats.

I asked my dealer to put me on the list for such a car. They said there's no list, but they will make one, and I'll be on the top

I also asked about GT3.2 test drives. Their answer: there won't be any demo cars, because the 2017 and 2018 production has already been sold out in Switzerland...

Drifting

That was a fantastic writeup. You described the differences very well between the engine, suspension and PDK-S vs PDK.

A carrera is a great car and nothing takes away from that, but as you noticed a GT3 is on an entirely different level. I also went from a 911 carrera cabriolet to a 991 GT3 and haven't looked back. I daily my GT3 half of the week and do a fun drive most weekends. I also track it every 6-8 weeks.

You owe it yourself to get a GT3 one day. Once your kids outgrow the backseat, it's time for a GT3.

Not to rain on your parade for the immediate future because no knows for certain, but those with the best information think that if the GT3 touring edition happens, that it will be manual only and no rear seats, basically a slightly heavier 911R for the enthusiasts who couldn't get an R, but limited in gear train and seats so the avarage 911 owner won't try to trade their leased turbo PDK 991.2 for a GT3 touring version.

Ski Porsche

Great write-up. I'm thinking a GT3 may be in order in a few years before I get too old.
My indie does a lot of track activity (including racing a Huracan) and has a 991.1 GT3 they rent for track days. As an aside, it's Hurley Haywood's car he replaced with a GT3 RS. Hm-mm, a track day in a GT3 might be a terrific father's day gift.

Raven 666

That is a great write up and fantastic to hear your observations and comparisons to the C2 ,,,,I think I need to get my self in debt again after reading that I want one more and more every time a read something about the new GT3 ...
I Australian we get 2 versions of interior fit out in the GT3 clubsport package consisting of LWB , Cage , Fire extinguisher and Harness ...Touring package consisting of the Sports seats or optional adaptive sports seat plus ..
Officially the Touring package it not acknowledged by Porsche Australia but has become an unofficial term used to define both options ..

djcxxx

It seems logical that the Touring package will be MT w/o seats. Porsche is now pitching PDK for ultimate sport and MT for ultimate involvement which seems to keep the internet purists from being overly agitated. I doubt it will be difficult to delete the wing on a .2 GT3 w/ PDK and substitute the touring pack parts required to replace the wing and finish the deck lid. The rear seats will be more of a challenge I suspect. The car is not, iMHO, a very good daily driver for a variety of reasons. Even w/ the front lift unforeseen road irregularities will cause the suspension to hit the limits and potentially damage the front end. The old sport cup tires were not up to heavy rain and along with cool temps their grip is shaky at best. The new tires may prove better. The wing is an obstacle in traffic. The adrenaline and brevity of a test drive may not reveal this, but over time the extra effort to negotiate traffic becomes noticeable. The upper rev band is unusable in daily driving, despite all its glory, even driving in manual from 1st, taking the engine to 9K is not feasible in traffic. The acquisition of speed is such that reaction times in traffic are not sufficient to avoid unpredictable drivers. As a weekend car on less congested roads the car is everything one could hope for in a sports car. I had reservations about the .1 GT3 engine and sold my 15. I now have a 17 C2S and have a December build for a .2 GT3. I am very pleased w/ the .2 C2S and, believe it or not, I still go back and forth about getting the GT3. However, the siren song of the new 4.0L engine is powerful and difficult to resist.

Hawkeye911

You should give a Turbo a try, would be interesting to see your perspective.

You could still have the cab, back seats and fantastic engine pull (albeit not quite 9k RPM).

It's amazing how many different 911 formats are available and how unique each is to the others.

Needsdecaf

Thanks for your perspective. I posted the same thread on the GT3 forum to get exactly this perspective; those who have owned both.

Needsdecaf

Yeah, I probably should. But I am more after the chassis than the power. I suspect that the turbo will be the opposite way of what I want to accomplish. But you never know!

I'm not a huge fan of the Turbo / RS body, if I'm being honest. The back looks TOO wide and flattened to me.

pitt911

great write up
I moved from a 991.1 CS to 991.1 GT3 to 991.1 GT3RS and the GT cars are in a different league and my biggest " pleasant " surprise is that they are very comfortable on the road, as compared to other cars I have owned like GTR which beats you up after one hr of driving

white924s

Have you thought at all about the 991.2 GTS? Seems like it might check a lot of the boxes that you mentioned (although it obviously doesn't have the NA engine with a 9K redline)

Drifting

sorry but the GTS has none of the boxes other than more power than the S.

It doesn't have the GT3 race car suspension which is very different than the carrera suspension even the SPASM option. The .2 GTS doesn't have the instant and linear response of an NA engine with the incredible sound of an 9K redline, and it doesn't have PDK-S.
As the OP described it "I've driven a 911S PDK with Sport Chrono in Sport Plus mode. PDKS in a GT3 makes that car seem like a GM Hydro-matic 3 speed in terms of shifts".

PDK-S is 10 times better than regular PDK. If you spend real time driving both cars, you will understand that difference as well as the other two.