When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
... This fits with my theory that Teslas have been adopted by people who hate cars and want to you to know it (even though they are still driving a car), having moved from 240 DL > Legacy Outback > Prius > Tesla with a few side roads here and there to fill the various gaps. Of course, there are plenty of exceptions out there—Pete being a great example, along with some other Rennlisters and a few friends who know their way around a GT3, but then, there were 240 Turbos back in the day, too.
I'd like to drive a Tesla, too, and will try to do so in the next few weeks. ...
Oh, no! Pete Stout is a Tesla hater and carries a prejudice about their owners. Are you blaming Elon Musk for your sore neck, too?
There's a great deal of unhelpful divisiveness on this general subject, over political views, over signaling virtue or wealth, over "engagement", over this peculiar competition on the 'ring, over the sort of varied purposes people have for cars that leads them to buy both Cayennes and Caymans, even over the use of "Turbo". Focus on the cars and how well they meet their design goals, please. Car guys should love all interesting cars.
Now I need to provide you a review history so you can judge whether my opinions are valid, not just own a good car? Well, I suppose there are a lot of poseurs that own them. But I doubt they’re on Rennlist.
It isn't about how valid your opinions are. It is about me being able to translate your opinions from your context into my context. I have a feel for Stout's context and where what matters to me differs from him. I don't for you.
I apologize for offending you.
As is the case from time-to-time, I should have posted nothing. I have to remember to post nothing more often.
^ This fits with my theory that Teslas have been adopted by people who hate cars and want to you to know it (even though they are still driving a car), having moved from 240 DL > Legacy Outback > Prius > Tesla with a few side roads here and there to fill the various gaps. Of course, there are plenty of exceptions out there—Pete being a great example, along with some other Rennlisters and a few friends who know their way around a GT3, but then, there were 240 Turbos back in the day, too.
My post wasn't meant to infer that my Tesla-owning friends (TOFs) hate cars. There are folks that hate cars. They may or may not hate Teslas less. I don't know.
Some of my TOFs are simply indifferent. They neither hate their toasters nor their cars. Some of my friends (TOFs or not) like very different things about their cars than I do. Thus, when they prefer car A over car B, their preference often makes no sense to me whatsoever. Some of my friends love cars but have no mechanical sympathy and thus their impressions have to be parsed correctly before given any weight.
This goes back to my two posts on context.
If a person says or writes "I like how the steering feels on car A but not-so-much on car B", and I hold a similar view about the steering on car A and car B, when that person says or writes something about the steering on car C, I can form expectations about how I will like the steering on car C. On the other hand if I think the steering on car B is superior to that of car A and that same someone tells me that car C's steering is stellar then I know that I should not give their opinion much weight when forming my expectations about the steering of car C.
Well said Pete, I agree completely. My Tesla model 3 Performance is by no means a perfect car, but it has completed ruined non special ICE cars for me. I have no interest in 98% of the ICE cars on the market. Not for a daily driver, not a weak NA engine in a regular car, certainly not a big heavy laggy turbo sports sedan/SUV/Truck. My Tesla Model 3 Performance is such a fun daily driver, with insane instant torque, a much smaller footprint and weight compared to the Model S or the Taycan as the M3P is 900lbs and 1050lbs respectively lighter than those two other electic cars. My M3p also feels chuckable. Not chuckable like my 987.2 Boxster S, but reasonably chuckable for a heavier car due to the smaller wheelbase and insane torque. Plus the electronics are great, adaptive cruise control, maps, stereo, and I love getting carpool lane access in California. Also I pay 75% less for charging than I would for gas (particularly in CA). I can carry a decent amount of cargo and 4 adults comfortably. I don't see myself ever owning an ICE daily again. But I also plan to keep a special ICE car around forever like my 991.2 GT3. Although I've really enjoyed my M3P the past two months, there is nothing like a canyon run, track day, or long trip on fun roads in my GT3!
Plenty of people who hate cars, or who stress way too much about the environment buy many of the teslas, just like a Prius. These are the people who purchase a base model 3, which is just annoying to drive given the relative power, brakes, suspension, etc. I'd never own that car.
Much of the superior dynamics of the Model 3 comes from the weight and dimensions. It's not such a huge, heavy car like the Model S or Taycan. The 3 is a foot shorter and almost a 1,000 lbs lighter than the S, and around a 1100 lbs lighter than the Taycan. The Tesla model 3 Performance is fun to drive and feels relatively light on its feet given the weight.
Agree bad brakes kill any car. The model 3 Performance comes with performance brakes, which are superior to the brakes on the other two model 3 options, but of course don't compare to GT3 brakes.
Regarding seats, I agree the model 3 seats aren't that great. I'm a bit crazy in that I installed 4 way 991 GT3 seats in my Tesla model 3 performance as you can see in the picture. Power works, seating position is better, and they grip me better in corners. Pic below. They actually blend reasonably well with the Tesla interior in black.
Pete, if you want to come down to LA sometime and drive my 991.2 GT3 and Tesla model 3 Performance (both with the same 4 way 991 GT3 seats) back to back, let me know.
^ This post just makes me happy...because if I saw your car in a parking lot with those seats, I would laugh out loud—and love it. I'd instantly know that, whoever is driving this car, is my people.
Originally Posted by Adk46
Oh, no! Pete Stout is a Tesla hater and carries a prejudice about their owners. Are you blaming Elon Musk for your sore neck, too?
There's a great deal of unhelpful divisiveness on this general subject, over political views, over signaling virtue or wealth, over "engagement", over this peculiar competition on the 'ring, over the sort of varied purposes people have for cars that leads them to buy both Cayennes and Caymans, even over the use of "Turbo". Focus on the cars and how well they meet their design goals, please. Car guys should love all interesting cars.
[Written from the 928 Frenzy in Dulles.]
You've misread me—or, more likely, my attempt at a bit of light-hearted humor didn't come across. Apologies offered.
Just because 240 DLs were the poster car for the anti-car people of my youth, that doesn't mean I don't dig 240 DLs...or Volvo, for that matter. Or, despite my personal "meh" about the Outback or the Prius, the Outback didn't stop me from buying a WRX years later—and we recently sold our XC60. So, for the record, I actually like Volvo a lot, and Tesla more. Both had a vision—one for safety, the other for electric mobility—and did the hard work of changing the game and the discourse. I admire that, and the parallel is timely just about now, given the birthday of the 3-point seatbelt...for which we all have Volvo to thank.
So, no Telsa hating here, nor any prejudice against their owners. As we've seen here, there are a lot of Porsche people who are open to Telsa—and I am among them. A Model 3 has been a discussion as a family car over the last six months or so, and we came pretty close. And, while we still need to see how the Taycan line evolves, the value equation—for our family—firmly favors Tesla.
Originally Posted by worf928
My post wasn't meant to infer that my Tesla-owning friends (TOFs) hate cars. There are folks that hate cars. They may or may not hate Teslas less. I don't know.
Some of my TOFs are simply indifferent. They neither hate their toasters nor their cars. Some of my friends (TOFs or not) like very different things about their cars than I do. Thus, when they prefer car A over car B, their preference often makes no sense to me whatsoever. Some of my friends love cars but have no mechanical sympathy and thus their impressions have to be parsed correctly before given any weight.
This goes back to my two posts on context.
If a person says or writes "I like how the steering feels on car A but not-so-much on car B", and I hold a similar view about the steering on car A and car B, when that person says or writes something about the steering on car C, I can form expectations about how I will like the steering on car C. On the other hand if I think the steering on car B is superior to that of car A and that same someone tells me that car C's steering is stellar then I know that I should not give their opinion much weight when forming my expectations about the steering of car C.
I got you, actually, and think I failed to convey the light-hearted nature intended with my post. I grew up in an area that is both very pro car and very anti-car. It's the kind of place that would have protests against the automobile, while at the same time having one of the coolest car cultures there is and a cottage industry of amazing shops for Alfas, Porsches, Datsuns, MGs, hot rods, Ferraris, lowriders, Nortons, etc. As many of you probably do, I have a fair few friends who "hate cars," and I always find myself interested in what they choose to drive. Many of their picks are quite cool...such as Vanagons & vintage buses (for which I have a particular soft spot), older Hondas, etc. And, yes, Teslas too.
Originally Posted by MM3.9GT3
…I am a Porsche loyalist, and a very good customer for them. But, I am a perfect example of someone who didn’t buy into that pricing model, regardless of my ability to afford one. I think the Porsche premium is way too high vs. the Model S P100D. Now, let’s see how the 4S price, and range compares to the base Model S 100D. In short, Porsche needs to rethink their EV pricing model.
I can't blame you, and count me as one more who is very interested in future Taycans. I'd gladly trade away some of the Turbo/S power, as it easily exceeded my needs...particularly in a daily driver. Anything under 5 seconds is already plenty quick for a daily, in my view. Under 4? Time to talk about handling, build quality, experience, range, and price.
Originally Posted by Robert Quinton
Stout, any thoughts on PDCC and Rear Axle Steering as they seem to be expensive options on the Turbo? How about 14 way seats vs the 18 way? Were there any on your trip that allowed you to see the difference in seating comfort? Finally, Burmester or Bose?
Not enough time—or, in some cases, any time—with each vs the other. Do have thoughts on PDCC and RAS, however…mainly that the Taycan has quite a long wheelbase and so RAS would be on my mind. In fact, I would probably order the full suite of handling options on this car, as its handling is what sets it apart from the Tesla in my mind—so that set of options (or the Sport package) would be high on my list to maximize its ride (PDDC also helps here) and handling.
Sport seats were great, with nice support and no aches after either day. Would be my choice.
Spent more time with Bose and an iTunes library than with Burmester, and found the Bose system to be quite good—the company has come a ways from its "Base" days. Should have spent some more time with the EQ than I did (did a very cursory adjust, and dearly wish Porsche would allow for more EQ adjustment through PCM than Treble and Bass only...as everything needed is there), but the music we listened to sounded good. Ditto for Burmester. Would I pay the premium? Probably not...but I'd want to do an isolated test with both before a firm yes or no—and do not claim to be a car audio expert.
Originally Posted by Petevb
I'd say you should shoot for a Model 3 Performance as a comparison point, but let me know if a Model 3 Dual motor would be helpful. Plenty of free time to drop by these days...
I do wonder if it will prove to be agile enough. Stepping way back I feel like the Taycan's not leading the target. The Model S was introduced in 2012. Seven years is a long cycle for the automotive industry and a lifetime in technology. It only took Tesla nine years to go from the original Roadster (barely more than a kit car built in a garage) to the Model 3, a car that is still so ahead in so many areas other manufactures are going out of their way not to compete with it.
Porsche has just put down a marker: an ultra premium electric for others to aim at. It's clearly a great car in many of the ways we'd hope it would be. However as a platform for war over the next half decade it frankly looks vulnerable to me. The "Porsche premium" has been justified over the years by the technical superiority of the cars. Sure the 991 Turbo might cost 2x the Nissan GTR or similarly quick Vette but it was measurably better. But is the Taycan going to be measurably better than its competition over its lifespan? Reading the Model S's spec sheet one could argue the answer is already no, but beyond that Tesla short cycles: there are 18 different versions of the Model S so far and one can be sure a new platform is on the drawing board. My bet is that this Taycan S will be competing against a car that's half the cost, has significantly greater performance, ~2x the usable range (once reserve miles are accounted for) charges faster on a better network and doesn't give up much if anything dynamically or on refinement. In fact the Taycan is almost what I'd wish for if I was Tesla- a competitor that justifies a high price-point that I can beat. The Taycan could easily still find a solid niche, especially if Tesla continues to ignore driver experience, but in many ways it seems to insure Tesla will focus on that area to deny competitors a foothold.
You mention the Taycan as a game-changer. I agree- the industry is at an inflection point. But it's not just just the cars that are changing, it's the way the game is played, and I feel Porsche will need to step lively if it's going to keep up. I recall a conversation with a Porsche engineer some years ago when the Taycan was just on the drawing board. He complained that Tesla was subsidizing their Model S with investor dollars and credits. Porsche engineers, meanwhile, were expected to make their standard profit margins- a daunting challenge. With technology from the Model 3 able to move Tesla significantly further down the cost curve that challenge has only gotten harder...
All good questions and points, as always. Porsche has some catching up to do, and knows it. Kind of like in its 964 days, and again with the 955/E1, but different too. For a lot of reasons, both internal and external. But, as a first punch, this feels more like 986/996 than 964 to me. The real questions, for me, come when the Taycan is joined by similar models from other premium brands—and how all of them relate to Tesla. I have to say that I think "value" every time I see a Telsa Model S or Model 3 since getting back from this trip, where before the mind words were "nice" and "fast" and "EV."
The biggest challenge for Porsche, as some others have pointed out, is what is certain to be a big gap in the lease price. Model 3s are down into the $500/mo range, and while M3P and higher-end models are quite a bit more, it's hard to imagine the Taycan (esp in Turbo/S form) isn't going to be a MUCH more expensive proposition. It will be interesting to see what Porsche does with the leasing, but I suspect it will be tied to the Panamera model? What will be more interesting to see is how the market reacts...and whether it has a problem with the Porsche premium when applied to an EV. All new territory…
Oh, no! Pete Stout is a Tesla hater and carries a prejudice about their owners. Are you blaming Elon Musk for your sore neck, too?
There's a great deal of unhelpful divisiveness on this general subject, over political views, over signaling virtue or wealth, over "engagement", over this peculiar competition on the 'ring, over the sort of varied purposes people have for cars that leads them to buy both Cayennes and Caymans, even over the use of "Turbo". Focus on the cars and how well they meet their design goals, please. Car guys should love all interesting cars.
[Written from the 928 Frenzy in Dulles.]
Went back and checked (and edited) my post, as I was bummed to see your take from my words. Can see how, but…
Originally Posted by stout
^ This fits with my theory that Teslas have been adopted by people who hate cars and want to you to know it (even though they are still driving a car)*, having moved from 240 DL > Legacy Outback > Prius > Tesla with a few side roads here and there to fill the various gaps. Of course, there are plenty of exceptions out there—Pete being a great example, along with some other Rennlisters and a few friends who know their way around a GT3, but then, there were 240 Turbos back in the day, too.
I'd like to drive a Tesla, too, and will try to do so in the next few weeks. May need to bug ChrisF, now that he's come over to the dark side (3.0tt) and because I just figured out he works a whole ten~ minutes from 000.
^ I intended the bolded text/wink above—which hasn't been changed from the original—to avoid a takeaway like yours. Ah well....
Thanks for the clarification, Pete. The root cause of my misinterpretation is that there really are out-and-out Tesla/Musk haters, literally angered by the sight of a Tesla. You inadvertently set off my Geiger counter for them. Peace.
[Again, written from 928 Frenzy. How's yours coming along, Pete? We're here to help! ]
^ This post just makes me happy...because if I saw your car in a parking lot with those seats, I would laugh out loud—and love it. I'd instantly know that, whoever is driving this car, is my people.
The biggest challenge for Porsche, as some others have pointed out, is what is certain to be a big gap in the lease price. Model 3s are down into the $500/mo range, and while M3P and higher-end models are quite a bit more, it's hard to imagine the Taycan (esp in Turbo/S form) isn't going to be a MUCH more expensive proposition. It will be interesting to see what Porsche does with the leasing, but I suspect it will be tied to the Panamera model? What will be more interesting to see is how the market reacts...and whether it has a problem with the Porsche premium when applied to an EV. All new territory…
Agree.
My Model 3 Performance lease is $700/month. Taycan will be quadruple that.
hello
as a daily drive using the taycan ... will the car be using the 1st gear ? or the 1st gear only activated on the sport plus? can some 1 please explain the gearbox functionality
Supposed to accelerate up to 50mph in 1st gear in Sports, Sports Plus mode, then switch to 2nd gear.
In other modes: Will start, operate in 2nd gear. However, if you mash the pedal, it should kick back down to 1st gear (even in range mode some reviewers reported).
I forgot who said it kicked down in Range mode. Let's see what Stout says?
The Taycan is the first EV to feature a multispeed transmission, which allows for quicker acceleration in first gear and greater efficiency and top speed in second. The Porsche only starts in first gear in Sport and Sport Plus modes, and you'll feel only the faintest interruption in the torque when it shifts in most situations. But during a launch, the transmission shifts hard and fast with no concern for anyone's comfort. It's unlike anything we've experienced in an EV.
You wonder: If Porsche wanted to increase the Taycan's acceleration in the future. The would just send out a program, to hold first gear longer to maybe 50-70-80 mph during 0-60 mph and other instances? But off course, that would effect efficiency as well (shrugs).
Nonetheless, 50 mph seems relatively low, when you only have two gears. Granted, I'm sure the torque's brutal in the Taycan. So, they have their reasons.
Thanks for the clarification, Pete. The root cause of my misinterpretation is that there really are out-and-out Tesla/Musk haters, literally angered by the sight of a Tesla. You inadvertently set off my Geiger counter for them. Peace.
[Again, written from 928 Frenzy. How's yours coming along, Pete? We're here to help! ]
No worries, and alas on my 928—I lost my hangar a while back (rodents drove my friends and I out of the place) and with it, the 928 project—which I hadn't done much with other than source some 16s and interior bits. Perhaps one day yet...
Originally Posted by Drifting
Agree.
My Model 3 Performance lease is $700/month. Taycan will be quadruple that.
I suspect this metric, more than nearly any other, will be critical to EV customers. These are, after all, emphatically daily drivers.
Originally Posted by Sulaiman
hello
as a daily drive using the taycan ... will the car be using the 1st gear ? or the 1st gear only activated on the sport plus? can some 1 please explain the gearbox functionality
It will, if it needs to—which depends on your inputs.
Originally Posted by Sulaiman
that's a good news
coz if I want the acceleration on sport and sport plus I domtmean the gear shifts
but if im doing a normal driver I wanna enjoy the seamless going forward feeling that the EV has
Trust me, you will. I found acceleration to be fabulously smooth and sudden in all modes—but notably stronger in Sport and Sport Plus (though I spent most of my time in Normal or Sport Plus).
Thanks for the clarification, Pete. The root cause of my misinterpretation is that there really are out-and-out Tesla/Musk haters, literally angered by the sight of a Tesla. You inadvertently set off my Geiger counter for them. Peace.]
Has it occurred to you that people dislike Musk because of his behaviours
(a) failing to deliver on guidance
(b) releases to the market through "leaked" employee emails
(c) only managed to deliver a profit on a couple of occasions
(d) mislead the market to such a degree that he and the Board were fined by the SEC
(e) calls a guy a pedophile for simply living in Thailand and then attempts to walk it back by saying he really meant creepy old guy
He is not trusted for good reason
Has it ever occurred to you that a lot of people don't like the products Tesla makes - simply because of the quality and the way they drive
Has it ever occurred to you that many Tesla owners use the language of the mob "deniers" "haters" - routinely
Has it ever occurred to you that your "Geiger counter" is irrelevant and that freedom of expression allows all views - whether you happen to like them or not is immaterial
Stout is a very generous contributor and I for one appreciate his perspective, sense of history WRT Porsche and general well meant enthusiasm .
Has it occurred to you that people dislike Musk because of his behaviours (a) failing to deliver on guidance (b) releases to the market through "leaked" employee emails (c) only managed to deliver a profit on a couple of occasions (d) mislead the market to such a degree that he and the Board were fined by the SEC (e) calls a guy a pedophile for simply living in Thailand and then attempts to walk it back by saying he really meant creepy old guy
He is not trusted for good reason
Has it ever occurred to you that a lot of people don't like the cars - the quality and the way they drive
Has it ever occurred to you that many Tesla owners use the language of the mob "deniers" "haters"
Has it ever occurred to you that your Geiger counter is irrelevant and that freedom of expression allows all views - whether you happen to like them or not is immaterial
Stout is a very generous contributor and I for one appreciate his perspective, sense of history WRT Porsche and general well meant enthusiasm .
Thank you for confirming so clearly that there are indeed people with a serious bias against Tesla and Elon Musk. You must think their owners are fools, too, even if they also own Porsches. Pete Stout has confirmed that he does not have such a bias, that I missed the intended humor in his comment. You should be more like Pete. He's not here fighting some imagined battle as you are.
By the way, I have a tall stack of 000 magazines here, beginning with issue 000. This is why I was so alarmed when I took his words too literally.
09-28-2019, 08:54 AM
]
