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Performance cars don’t need more power and torque they need better trained more knowledgeable drivers.
It's less about knowledge and skill and more about exerting oneself. Show me a turbo or EV driver who worships torque as the answer to all that is performance, and I'll highlight that person as lazy as hell.
We already have a production example of a sub 3000 lbs EV 2 seater coupe - 2008 Tesla Roadster at 2800'ish lbs in production trim - if Porsche can't come close to that they are doing it wrong.
Yeah, the Horses we used to ride were even lighter than the cars we have now!
(Food for thought)
...and how much did a horse cost to insure? EV is not ready for prime time. But I'm glad that there are willing participants in the process as EV goes through the stone age.
I believe most of us naturally overestimate the role weight plays in the driver experience of EVs. We start with natural assumptions based on our experiences with ICE cars, yet we fail to mentally account for the effects of much lower CG, lower polar moment and advanced suspension/ rubber. A 918 weighs as much as a ‘90s Cadillac DeVille; a fact I doubt anyone would guess based on driving the two cars.
Where weight will make a huge difference is with regards to efficiency and cost. The batteries in the Taycan likely cost Porsche nearly 20k, while their weight requires wider rubber, bigger brakes, etc to maintain handling. For this reason a smaller, lighter pack makes lots of sense in Boxster replacement. With the 4K lbs model 3 as a starting point I see no reason Porsche couldn’t shave a couple feet of car length along with 15 kWh worth of batteries to end up below 3600 lbs with a car that feels like it’s less than 3k lbs. And that would be a very interesting proposition indeed...
A 918 weighs as much as a ‘90s Cadillac DeVille; a fact I doubt anyone would guess based on driving the two cars.
A 918 weighs about the same as a BMW E92 M3. Both have V8s. So making it corner well wasn't that hard, especially considering it's AWD and has quite a lot of high tech driving aids. A Taycan weighs considerably more and at 5k pounds is a tall ask to give it a Porsche sports car driving experience. They'll get there eventually. An EV Boxster/Cayman will need to not exceed the current 982 weight if it wants enthusiasts to buy them. Porsche won't let it underperform so not to worry there.
I'm just hoping the Taycan isn't the torch that is Tesla. If the Taycan is far less prone to spontaneous ignition, it's a victory. Will also be interesting to see how the insurance business rates it.
I believe most of us naturally overestimate the role weight plays in the driver experience of EVs. We start with natural assumptions based on our experiences with ICE cars, yet we fail to mentally account for the effects of much lower CG, lower polar moment and advanced suspension/ rubber. A 918 weighs as much as a ‘90s Cadillac DeVille; a fact I doubt anyone would guess based on driving the two cars.
Where weight will make a huge difference is with regards to efficiency and cost. The batteries in the Taycan likely cost Porsche nearly 20k, while their weight requires wider rubber, bigger brakes, etc to maintain handling. For this reason a smaller, lighter pack makes lots of sense in Boxster replacement. With the 4K lbs model 3 as a starting point I see no reason Porsche couldn’t shave a couple feet of car length along with 15 kWh worth of batteries to end up below 3600 lbs with a car that feels like it’s less than 3k lbs. And that would be a very interesting proposition indeed...
Originally Posted by MidEngineRules
A 918 weighs about the same as a BMW E92 M3. Both have V8s. So making it corner well wasn't that hard, especially considering it's AWD and has quite a lot of high tech driving aids. A Taycan weighs considerably more and at 5k pounds is a tall ask to give it a Porsche sports car driving experience. They'll get there eventually. An EV Boxster/Cayman will need to not exceed the current 982 weight if it wants enthusiasts to buy them. Porsche won't let it underperform so not to worry there.
I'm just hoping the Taycan isn't the torch that is Tesla. If the Taycan is far less prone to spontaneous ignition, it's a victory. Will also be interesting to see how the insurance business rates it.
Weight reduction is a virtuous cycle. Gordon Murray has always preached this, and he's right. The Taycan weighs a lot, absolutely. But downsize to a smaller shell, and have smaller performance goals (i.e. 718 performance, not 911 Turbo S. Suddenly you need much smaller motors (because the platform is smaller and the performance goals are smaller). You can get away with a smaller range too. Now your battery is smaller as well. Brakes are smaller. Etc., etc. Make it RWD and now you're a lot lighter still. Remember that Taycan has a standard air suspension as well. And I bet an electric 718 would drop the transmission. More weight too.
Model 3 is about 4,100 lbs AWD. That's a AWD sedan that's 186" long. A Boxster is a foot shorter. You probably couldn't even fit a 75 kWh pack, much less the Taycan's 93 kWh monster. Even accounting for better interior materials and heavier seats, you could easily see a RWD electric 718 at 3,100 lbs.
Oh, and Tesla's don't have the perpensity for burning to the ground, by the way. Not saying some haven't. But it's not exactly a common problem.
Model 3 is about 4,100 lbs AWD. That's a AWD sedan that's 186" long. A Boxster is a foot shorter. You probably couldn't even fit a 75 kWh pack, much less the Taycan's 93 kWh monster. Even accounting for better interior materials and heavier seats, you could easily see a RWD electric 718 at 3,100 lbs.
I was looking at the Tacan’s components, as it’s a near certainty that Porsche intended them to be modular and re-used. Based on the chassis/ floor pan it looks straightforward for Porsche to cut well over a foot from the wheelbase while still keeping space for 75+ kw in a 2 seater (if they choose). Note the gap in the batteries on the Taycan that could easily be filled. It’s only there for the rear seat passenger’s feet:
The GT4’s engine and transmission is particularly heavy, roughly equaling the GT3’s 500+ hp 4.0 when the exhaust is included. Thus there is significant weight to offset the addition of batteries. Expecting the new car to be lighter, however, seems highly over-optimistic...
The GT4’s engine and transmission is particularly heavy, roughly equaling the GT3’s 500+ hp 4.0 when the exhaust is included. Thus there is significant weight to offset the addition of batteries. Expecting the new car to be lighter, however, seems highly over-optimistic...
Thanks for the reality check. I don't recall hearing about the GT4's weight, and assumed it was similar to the old one at around 2,900 - 3,000 lbs. Looks like it's shot up to more like 3,200. I agree, it would be highly unlikely that the EV version would be lighter.
I'm just hoping the Taycan isn't the torch that is Tesla. If the Taycan is far less prone to spontaneous ignition, it's a victory. Will also be interesting to see how the insurance business rates it.
Really, did you use google first to see how many ICE cars catch fire? Also how many people have died in a Tesla car that did catch fire vs the percentage of people killed by ICE fires. How come a Tesla fire is so bad yet the far more common ICE fires get no mention?
Earl Colby Pottinger (Tesla, Taycan, Bollinger, Rivian and other BEVs fan)
I have no doubt it will be slightly heavier - but I'll be surprised if it's close to 4000 lbs - I'll stick with 3,200 lbs as my estimate.
Put me down for 3550 for the lowest spec 4wd version.
It really comes down to Porsche’s philosophy and what cars they share parts with. The 981 Cayman weighs what it does because it shares much of its platform platform plus 95% plus of its engine architecture and components with a relatively large, heavy, powerful GT car (the 991). And electric successor might get significantly smaller if it’s not forced to share, or on the other hand it could get much larger/ heavier if it shares a platform with the Taycan. We shall see...
Originally Posted by earl pottinger
Really, did you use google first to see how many ICE cars catch fire? Also how many people have died in a Tesla car that did catch fire vs the percentage of people killed by ICE fires. How come a Tesla fire is so bad yet the far more common ICE fires get no mention?
To be fair when a lion does catch fire it’s much harder to put out for responding personnel. That said if I’m picking any mid-size car to crash in it might well be the Model 3. The battery does change how the car would burn, but the additional strength it provides the chassis in the event of an accident more than makes up for it. IMHO...
I was looking at the Tacan’s components, as it’s a near certainty that Porsche intended them to be modular and re-used. Based on the chassis/ floor pan it looks straightforward for Porsche to cut well over a foot from the wheelbase while still keeping space for 75+ kw in a 2 seater (if they choose). Note the gap in the batteries on the Taycan that could easily be filled. It’s only there for the rear seat passenger’s feet:
The GT4’s engine and transmission is particularly heavy, roughly equaling the GT3’s 500+ hp 4.0 when the exhaust is included. Thus there is significant weight to offset the addition of batteries. Expecting the new car to be lighter, however, seems highly over-optimistic...
Looking at that design, it looks like Porsche has a lot of options for future designs, what do you think the lightest design that would be possible? I am wondering if they made a two seater with 50 kWh of battery they could still made a car that accelerates fast, still has a low COG, has a range of 150-200 miles. I don't know sport cars, but looks to me that they can make a very preppy car if they want to.
Earl Colby Pottinger (Tesla, Taycan, Bollinger, Rivian and other BEVs fan)
I'm thinking they will stack the battery behind the passenger compartment when the engine is now
keep the very low seating position...
I enjoy the feel of the low seating position, though I don’t think they’d want to go up very high with batteries and compromise CG height. It would be radical for Porsche, but they do have options such as a fixed low seat location and movable pedals/ wheel that could put the seat bottom very low and the feet higher (like F1 or the Aston Martin Valkyrie). That said driving position should really be sacrosanct, so I don’t think they’ll go that route.
Those look like 2.8 kWh battery modules so figure between 16 and 21 (for 45-59 kWh). Notice they have one module turned lengthwise between the rear passengers feet? For a Cayman you might add something like 3 lengthwise stacked 2 high in the center tunnel between driver and passenger, then keep everything from the Taycan’t rear footwell back (including those 12 cells ) to use that portion of the chassis wholesale. That’d give you your low seat position, 18 cells for 50 kWh, ~210 mile range on the smaller, lighter platform with freedom to re-use front and rear structures as needed. That could look something like:
760 lbs of battery weight plus ~450 lbs of motors and transmission plays against ~900 lbs of engine, exhaust, transmission and fuel tank weight in the conventional ICE. So a net you’re up 350 lbs with ancillaries but you likely get 4wd as part of the bargain.
Or they might need to replace a couple of those cells with the control module they already have between the seats? It will be interesting to see what they feel “acceptable” range is...
I don't want to start a fight (small lie) but assuming this or a related smaller/lighter design gets made by Porsche in the future what is the best street legal tires to put one it? I am assuming that Porsche is limited in which tires are safe for the Taycan because of the weight. I am making the assumption that a lighter car will increase the range of type of tires that can be used.
Earl Colby Pottinger (Tesla, Taycan, Bollinger, Rivian and other BEVs fan)
10-02-2019, 03:27 PM
