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I’d love to know how much of the Taycan’s weight is in the battery. I’d also like to know how the weight of the drivetrain compares to a conventional ICE vehicle.
Let's dig into that. Per the tech workshop in ATL:
Main battery unit is attached from below with 28 bolts to add rigidity and weighs 630 kg, or 1,388 lbs
Front motor is 71-76 kg, or 157-168 lbs (S is heavier) for 175-190 kW/300-440 Nm max on LC
Rear motor is 170 kg, or 375 lbs (same for both models) for 335 kW with 550 Nm (610 on LC)
So 532-543 lbs for the motors. The right comparison is an ICE engine with similar output (or less for a lighter curb weight). As for the battery, a Panamera's 23.7 gallon tank @ 6.073 lbs per gallon works out to 144 pounds—not much of a "discount" for the battery weight. Transmissions are light, with the front transmission noted at 16 kg, or 35 lbs. That's lighter than my mag-case 901, and while it doesn't have 5+R, the 901 doesn't have to deal with 300-440 Nm. Don't see weight for the rear transmission in my notes, which means I either sneezed or it's integrated in the rear motor. Will have to do some digging on that.
Thanks for the thoughtful comments Pete.
I think Porsche's go-to-market strategy is shocking to people esp on RL, but maybe it's easy to over-react based on years' worth of hype.
Porsche is attempting to maximize margin and help recoup R&D costs by exploiting it's brand and position releasing an EV.
Tesla did similar things, initially selling only the maximal configurations for as much margin as the market would accept - as a specific part of their business model.
Eventually we'll see if a $120k Taycan S is competitive against Teslas and other EVs in the market place. Maybe it will take them a few generations.
And clearly Porsche is committed for a long period to developing EVs.
It is amusing that I can go drive an ancient lightened long hood 911 that in total weighs less than the roughly 870kg of EV motors and battery in the Taycan.
Instead of being frustrated with Porsche's initial pricing and market positioning, I think I'll just go drive a '73 T and enjoy the fumes.
As an owner 3 of Porsche's heaviest pigs, 918, last gen Cayenne Turbo S and the current Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid, I think i can speak for how they handle the 'extra' weight.
5 years ago, when the 918 was announced, everyone disses the 'heavy' car. Look what happened to the pig? It only went to the Ring and got the Ring King title with the first sub 7 min lap for a production car.
My last gen Cayenne Turbo S was also labeled a pig, it also went to the Ring and crowned fastest SUV.
The extra porky Panamera Turbo S? Same thing, fastest production sedan on the Ring.
Porsche knows their stuff, they have world class engineering, if any company can defy physics and make weight disappear, it's Porsche. Not Tesla, not GM, certainly not Ferrari or whoever.
I routinely take all my cars to my track, even the Cayenne. You guys should see the faces of the Corvette and Cayman drivers when I pass them in the pig, aka Cayenne Turbo S.
Weird thing happened when people thing Porsche will do a budget EV.
The Taycan was never a budget car, go buy a Nissan Leaf if someone wants a budget EV. Before the Taycan, Tesla practically own the EV segment, top to bottom. It doesn't matter if you are a 250k a year lawyer, or a 8 figure a year Wall Street CEO, if you want a nice EV, there is no choice but to buy a Tesla Model S/X. Imagine in a alternate universe the NICEST car is a Corolla, that was the EV market before the Taycan.
With Porsche launching the Taycan, and with the top tier models coming out first, those with disposable incomes now won't need to settle for just a Tesla. Now they can go buy a Taycan Turbo or Turbo S. The Taycan just look over the top end of the EV segment. And with economics of scale, the lower trim level cars coming in later will benefits from cheaper parts cost.
For those that say a Model S can do 0-60 quicker or whatever. Go ask a Rolls Royce Ghost owner, does he care if say a Toyota Camry does 0-60 faster? Nope. it makes zero difference, the Ghost is fast enough.
For those that say the Taycan's range is not enough, I had 5 difference Ferraris that go LESS on a tank of fuel. Worst offended is my F12, it barely can last 200km on a tank of fuel in the city.
EV cars are not the be all end all car. It can never be.
But the perfect sedan right now is actually the Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid. One can be green inside the city, those 40km EV range is good enough for 'inside' runs. Once outside the city one can start using the engine and those 500-600km range will get one to very far away. Not to mention one can also use the engine to recharge the onboard battery to be used once you reach the next city. One 5 mins fill up in a gas station and the whole thing can be repeated.
EV cars are not there yet, nor will it ever be, but the 800V system and the soon to come recharge station can get closer to that. 23mins to get from 0-80% charge? It's a lot more acceptable than those 40mins stops for the 400V Teslas. Or any other 400V EV.
The benefits of 800V will show up later, down the road. Higher voltage means lower current for a given power, so the wires can be thinner, and less current loss via resistance, that also means less heat generated. 3 folds advantage.
Imagine if Tesla announced a 400kw charging station, that means pushing 1000A, and that needs some serious cooling. In the 800V world, that's only 500A, quite a bit more manageable.
The Taycan is only the first salvo from the next generation 800V system, there will be even better products coming.
As an owner 3 of Porsche's heaviest pigs, 918, last gen Cayenne Turbo S and the current Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid, I think i can speak for how they handle the 'extra' weight.
5 years ago, when the 918 was announced, everyone disses the 'heavy' car. Look what happened to the pig? It only went to the Ring and got the Ring King title with the first sub 7 min lap for a production car.
My last gen Cayenne Turbo S was also labeled a pig, it also went to the Ring and crowned fastest SUV.
The extra porky Panamera Turbo S? Same thing, fastest production sedan on the Ring.
Porsche knows their stuff, they have world class engineering, if any company can defy physics and make weight disappear, it's Porsche. Not Tesla, not GM, certainly not Ferrari or whoever.
I routinely take all my cars to my track, even the Cayenne. You guys should see the faces of the Corvette and Cayman drivers when I pass them in the pig, aka Cayenne Turbo S.
Weird thing happened when people thing Porsche will do a budget EV.
The Taycan was never a budget car, go buy a Nissan Leaf if someone wants a budget EV. Before the Taycan, Tesla practically own the EV segment, top to bottom. It doesn't matter if you are a 250k a year lawyer, or a 8 figure a year Wall Street CEO, if you want a nice EV, there is no choice but to buy a Tesla Model S/X. Imagine in a alternate universe the NICEST car is a Corolla, that was the EV market before the Taycan.
With Porsche launching the Taycan, and with the top tier models coming out first, those with disposable incomes now won't need to settle for just a Tesla. Now they can go buy a Taycan Turbo or Turbo S. The Taycan just look over the top end of the EV segment. And with economics of scale, the lower trim level cars coming in later will benefits from cheaper parts cost.
For those that say a Model S can do 0-60 quicker or whatever. Go ask a Rolls Royce Ghost owner, does he care if say a Toyota Camry does 0-60 faster? Nope. it makes zero difference, the Ghost is fast enough.
For those that say the Taycan's range is not enough, I had 5 difference Ferraris that go LESS on a tank of fuel. Worst offended is my F12, it barely can last 200km on a tank of fuel in the city.
EV cars are not the be all end all car. It can never be.
But the perfect sedan right now is actually the Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid. One can be green inside the city, those 40km EV range is good enough for 'inside' runs. Once outside the city one can start using the engine and those 500-600km range will get one to very far away. Not to mention one can also use the engine to recharge the onboard battery to be used once you reach the next city. One 5 mins fill up in a gas station and the whole thing can be repeated.
EV cars are not there yet, nor will it ever be, but the 800V system and the soon to come recharge station can get closer to that. 23mins to get from 0-80% charge? It's a lot more acceptable than those 40mins stops for the 400V Teslas. Or any other 400V EV.
The benefits of 800V will show up later, down the road. Higher voltage means lower current for a given power, so the wires can be thinner, and less current loss via resistance, that also means less heat generated. 3 folds advantage.
Imagine if Tesla announced a 400kw charging station, that means pushing 1000A, and that needs some serious cooling. In the 800V world, that's only 500A, quite a bit more manageable.
The Taycan is only the first salvo from the next generation 800V system, there will be even better products coming.
The vast majority of guys I know who bought Tesla Model S cars are in the tech industry and very successful - they aren't wall street CEOs.
It's highly doubtful Wall street CEO are going to rush to buy this uninspiring Taycan and it's highly doubtful that most in the tech industry are going to support the technologically inferior car.
A bunch of vegans built a better car in a tent. I don't know how it's possible but it is.
As an owner 3 of Porsche's heaviest pigs, 918, last gen Cayenne Turbo S and the current Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid, I think i can speak for how they handle the 'extra' weight.
5 years ago, when the 918 was announced, everyone disses the 'heavy' car. Look what happened to the pig? It only went to the Ring and got the Ring King title with the first sub 7 min lap for a production car.
My last gen Cayenne Turbo S was also labeled a pig, it also went to the Ring and crowned fastest SUV.
The extra porky Panamera Turbo S? Same thing, fastest production sedan on the Ring.
Porsche knows their stuff, they have world class engineering, if any company can defy physics and make weight disappear, it's Porsche. Not Tesla, not GM, certainly not Ferrari or whoever.
I routinely take all my cars to my track, even the Cayenne. You guys should see the faces of the Corvette and Cayman drivers when I pass them in the pig, aka Cayenne Turbo S.
Weird thing happened when people thing Porsche will do a budget EV.
The Taycan was never a budget car, go buy a Nissan Leaf if someone wants a budget EV. Before the Taycan, Tesla practically own the EV segment, top to bottom. It doesn't matter if you are a 250k a year lawyer, or a 8 figure a year Wall Street CEO, if you want a nice EV, there is no choice but to buy a Tesla Model S/X. Imagine in a alternate universe the NICEST car is a Corolla, that was the EV market before the Taycan.
With Porsche launching the Taycan, and with the top tier models coming out first, those with disposable incomes now won't need to settle for just a Tesla. Now they can go buy a Taycan Turbo or Turbo S. The Taycan just look over the top end of the EV segment. And with economics of scale, the lower trim level cars coming in later will benefits from cheaper parts cost.
For those that say a Model S can do 0-60 quicker or whatever. Go ask a Rolls Royce Ghost owner, does he care if say a Toyota Camry does 0-60 faster? Nope. it makes zero difference, the Ghost is fast enough.
For those that say the Taycan's range is not enough, I had 5 difference Ferraris that go LESS on a tank of fuel. Worst offended is my F12, it barely can last 200km on a tank of fuel in the city.
EV cars are not the be all end all car. It can never be.
But the perfect sedan right now is actually the Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid. One can be green inside the city, those 40km EV range is good enough for 'inside' runs. Once outside the city one can start using the engine and those 500-600km range will get one to very far away. Not to mention one can also use the engine to recharge the onboard battery to be used once you reach the next city. One 5 mins fill up in a gas station and the whole thing can be repeated.
EV cars are not there yet, nor will it ever be, but the 800V system and the soon to come recharge station can get closer to that. 23mins to get from 0-80% charge? It's a lot more acceptable than those 40mins stops for the 400V Teslas. Or any other 400V EV.
The benefits of 800V will show up later, down the road. Higher voltage means lower current for a given power, so the wires can be thinner, and less current loss via resistance, that also means less heat generated. 3 folds advantage.
Imagine if Tesla announced a 400kw charging station, that means pushing 1000A, and that needs some serious cooling. In the 800V world, that's only 500A, quite a bit more manageable.
The Taycan is only the first salvo from the next generation 800V system, there will be even better products coming.
but Tesla's already done the s- they are pushing 250 kW with 400 volts, and actual real world charge times are inline with vaporware Porsche charge times - I've yet to see _ANY_ advantage that has actually materialized for the 800 volt system.
but Tesla's already done the s- they are pushing 250 kW with 400 volts, and actual real world charge times are inline with vaporware Porsche charge times - I've yet to see _ANY_ advantage that has actually materialized for the 800 volt system.
Tesla 250kW charging only lasts for a few minutes at "1000 miles per hour", then has to taper off. I think the cells get too hot. Porsche used a larger cell that could withstand high speed charging for longer.
The 800V stuff is a red herring. It would only matter on commercial vehicles like busses, semi trucks, etc. Very few commercial charging units can justify putting a power cabinet that big in a remote location. But it would make sense if you were a municipality, industrial company, etc.
Tesla 250kW charging only lasts for a few minutes at "1000 miles per hour", then has to taper off. I think the cells get too hot. Porsche used a larger cell that could withstand high speed charging for longer.
The 800V stuff is a red herring. It would only matter on commercial vehicles like busses, semi trucks, etc. Very few commercial charging units can justify putting a power cabinet that big in a remote location. But it would make sense if you were a municipality, industrial company, etc.
Tesla's cells are the gold standard. Porsche's pouch design is not.
If Porsche did something superior to Tesla it would have to be related to how they're cooling the cells.
Regardless, Porsche's charging network and supposed superior charging ability are complete vaporware at this point.
destaccado,
in the last 24h you are repeating one and the same in maybe 7 different Taycan threads. We all took your point, so please buy a Tesla and stop terrorize people with your hate.
Regards,
Hi Pete, thanks for posting your initial thoughts about the car, the whole "embargo" thing is quite odd
I just got back from the press intro at Niagara Falls (Canada) and I must say that the car looks great in person. Porsche managed to pull off much of the Mission E's show car styling, especially the very low front hood and pronounced rear fenders. A lot of this was necessary to achieve a Cd of 0.22 for the Turbo, but the Turbo S has a figure of 0.25 thanks to wider wheels and tires (I didn't see the base Turbo in person to check rear fender width). But it is amazing how they pulled off such low-slung, sports car proportions with a relatively large sedan; according to the chassis and body engineers that I spoke to, it was the single greatest challenge they have ever faced in terms of packaging with the styling requirements, safety regulations for the batteries, etc.
Sadly we did not get to drive it, but those who have driven it are completely in awe. I understand that some are disappointed in its curb weight (myself included) and that its on-paper stats don't seem to demolish the upper-range Teslas, but that is not the point. This thing is designed to be driven hard for extended periods of time, and the amount of engineering that went into it is truly impressive.
When I asked the top Porsche brass at the event about future variants (as in a lighter, rear-motor-only version), the answer was always a polite smile and that the regular course of Porsche model introductions will occur. As in, we get the top-spec, "Turbo" and "Turbo S" models at first, presumably followed by "S" and base models. It will be interesting to see where they go with this.
I write tech articles for Excellence Magazine, so my deep dive under the skin of the Taycan won't be out for a few months, but it will help to explain more about what makes this car a Porsche.
Thanks to Pete Stout and Chris A (Droops83) for sharing their opinions based on actual interactions with actual car, the designers and engineers, etc. Time will tell on this thing, and we're on day 2. Porsche has been a successful car company making great cars for a long time, and all the people here gnashing their teeth seem to be forgetting that. Cayenne: shocking, soul-crushing introduction, now a top seller for Porsche and a top performer in the SUV segment. 996: shocking, soul-crushing introduction, yet introduced a new era of spectacular sports cars. I have no doubt that Taycan will get there too.
Thanks to Pete Stout and Chris A (Droops83) for sharing their opinions based on actual interactions with actual car, the designers and engineers, etc. Time will tell on this thing, and we're on day 2. Porsche has been a successful car company making great cars for a long time, and all the people here gnashing their teeth seem to be forgetting that. Cayenne: shocking, soul-crushing introduction, now a top seller for Porsche and a top performer in the SUV segment. 996: shocking, soul-crushing introduction, yet introduced a new era of spectacular sports cars. I have no doubt that Taycan will get there too.
Aren't you doing just a tad bit of moving the goalposts with that argument?
The people gnashing their teeth are doing it based on the product that's being released now - not on whether Porsche will eventually get it right.
It seems as though you just brought up two instances where being an early-adopter of a new Porsche was a bad idea. I don't think anyone here is saying anything more than exactly that.
As an owner 3 of Porsche's heaviest pigs, 918, last gen Cayenne Turbo S and the current Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid, I think i can speak for how they handle the 'extra' weight.
5 years ago, when the 918 was announced, everyone disses the 'heavy' car. Look what happened to the pig? It only went to the Ring and got the Ring King title with the first sub 7 min lap for a production car.
My last gen Cayenne Turbo S was also labeled a pig, it also went to the Ring and crowned fastest SUV.
The extra porky Panamera Turbo S? Same thing, fastest production sedan on the Ring.
Porsche knows their stuff, they have world class engineering, if any company can defy physics and make weight disappear, it's Porsche. Not Tesla, not GM, certainly not Ferrari or whoever.
I routinely take all my cars to my track, even the Cayenne. You guys should see the faces of the Corvette and Cayman drivers when I pass them in the pig, aka Cayenne Turbo S.
Weird thing happened when people thing Porsche will do a budget EV.
The Taycan was never a budget car, go buy a Nissan Leaf if someone wants a budget EV. Before the Taycan, Tesla practically own the EV segment, top to bottom. It doesn't matter if you are a 250k a year lawyer, or a 8 figure a year Wall Street CEO, if you want a nice EV, there is no choice but to buy a Tesla Model S/X. Imagine in a alternate universe the NICEST car is a Corolla, that was the EV market before the Taycan.
With Porsche launching the Taycan, and with the top tier models coming out first, those with disposable incomes now won't need to settle for just a Tesla. Now they can go buy a Taycan Turbo or Turbo S. The Taycan just look over the top end of the EV segment. And with economics of scale, the lower trim level cars coming in later will benefits from cheaper parts cost.
For those that say a Model S can do 0-60 quicker or whatever. Go ask a Rolls Royce Ghost owner, does he care if say a Toyota Camry does 0-60 faster? Nope. it makes zero difference, the Ghost is fast enough.
For those that say the Taycan's range is not enough, I had 5 difference Ferraris that go LESS on a tank of fuel. Worst offended is my F12, it barely can last 200km on a tank of fuel in the city.
EV cars are not the be all end all car. It can never be.
But the perfect sedan right now is actually the Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid. One can be green inside the city, those 40km EV range is good enough for 'inside' runs. Once outside the city one can start using the engine and those 500-600km range will get one to very far away. Not to mention one can also use the engine to recharge the onboard battery to be used once you reach the next city. One 5 mins fill up in a gas station and the whole thing can be repeated.
EV cars are not there yet, nor will it ever be, but the 800V system and the soon to come recharge station can get closer to that. 23mins to get from 0-80% charge? It's a lot more acceptable than those 40mins stops for the 400V Teslas. Or any other 400V EV.
The benefits of 800V will show up later, down the road. Higher voltage means lower current for a given power, so the wires can be thinner, and less current loss via resistance, that also means less heat generated. 3 folds advantage.
Imagine if Tesla announced a 400kw charging station, that means pushing 1000A, and that needs some serious cooling. In the 800V world, that's only 500A, quite a bit more manageable.
The Taycan is only the first salvo from the next generation 800V system, there will be even better products coming.
All great points. Thank you for a refreshing perspective!
Spoke with someone today, and it sounds like a real-use range of 295~ miles is already evident—this while running with the flow of traffic at high speed on a long trip rather than hyper-miling. This with the A/C on, rain (lights and wipers), some hard starts and hard acceleration, etc.
Hardly scientific, and I'll take it with a grain of salt, but my takeaway is that we may find people getting better results than what we're seeing.
Which reminds me...Porsche has long had a habit of being conservative with its stated 0-60 times and other performance figures, which have often been beaten by Car and Driver, Motor Trend, etc. So, there may be more to this story. None of this solves the charging infrastructure issues, and I will be as interested as everyone else when the direct comparo tests come along. However, I think the phrase "time will tell" was well applied above. It will be very interesting to see how owners' experiences stack up against EPA ratings, though that's a ways off. In the meantime, I'll be curious to see what I see later this month while driving the Taycan.
Spoke with someone today, and it sounds like a real-use range of 295~ miles is already evident—this while running with the flow of traffic at high speed on a long trip rather than hyper-miling. This with the A/C on, rain (lights and wipers), some hard starts and hard acceleration, etc.
Hardly scientific, and I'll take it with a grain of salt, but my takeaway is that we may find people getting better results than what we're seeing.
Which reminds me...Porsche has long had a habit of being conservative with its stated 0-60 times and other performance figures, which have often been beaten by Car and Driver, Motor Trend, etc. So, there may be more to this story. None of this solves the charging infrastructure issues, and I will be as interested as everyone else when the direct comparo tests come along. However, I think the phrase "time will tell" was well applied above. It will be very interesting to see how owners' experiences stack up against EPA ratings, though that's a ways off. In the meantime, I'll be curious to see what I see later this month while driving the Taycan.
Great news. They are probably conservative with acceleration numbers as well. Too bad we are not likely to get similar good news on the curb weight.
On a related not, there is something odd with Porsche and mileage specs lately. The new Cayenne Turbo also is specced with horrible mileage, worse than the previous gen, but in real life I'm getting almost 20% better than previous gen in the same conditions.
09-04-2019, 07:43 PM
