PCA Road Atlanta Yellow Enduro?!?!?
04-10-2018, 10:04 AM
#1
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Thread Starter
PCA Road Atlanta Yellow Enduro?!?!?
Can someone please explain to me what happened in the Yellow Enduro at Road Atlanta? I thought the onitrack black flag was EXTREMELY long (a number of cars overheating) and could have been better managed. I also did not understand the shuffling of cars during the black flag. I would like to at least understand why and can anything be done to avoid this kind of delay in the future.
04-10-2018, 11:01 AM
#2
Nordschleife Master
Marc,
I agree, it was a fiasco and not well organized. I was sitting between T3 and T4 for over 20 minutes when we stopped the second time. At one point an SP1 car (my paddock neighbor) pulled up next to me and said "do you mind if I cut in front of you, they told me to move up, but didn't tell me where to go". He said later that since I was the only car he recognized, he felt more comfortable asking me. An official should have been there to put him in the proper position.
Still waiting to see the "official" results, they were not out when I left RA.
Here is the rule of what is to be done from the Enduro Protocol.
"17. If a Black All or a Red All is declared, at the time that the Black All or Red is first shown at Start/Finish, the pit stop timing clock shall stop for cars then serving their mandatory pit stop. The Enduro Race Timing shall continue. The race order shall go back to the order of the cars as they pass Start/Finish behind the on track race leader’s last Green flag lap. No work shall be allowed on any cars during a Black All. The mandatory pit stop timing shall commence at such time as the green flag is dropped at Start/Finish for the field, once the Black All has been completed. Any cars that have entered the pits under the Black All may remain in the pits but their mandatory pit stop shall not start and no work may occur on those cars until the Green Flag has been dropped on the field. Since the race order shall be the race order for the leader’s last Green Flag lap, the field may be re‐ordered in the pits during the Black All. "
I agree, it was a fiasco and not well organized. I was sitting between T3 and T4 for over 20 minutes when we stopped the second time. At one point an SP1 car (my paddock neighbor) pulled up next to me and said "do you mind if I cut in front of you, they told me to move up, but didn't tell me where to go". He said later that since I was the only car he recognized, he felt more comfortable asking me. An official should have been there to put him in the proper position.
Still waiting to see the "official" results, they were not out when I left RA.
Here is the rule of what is to be done from the Enduro Protocol.
"17. If a Black All or a Red All is declared, at the time that the Black All or Red is first shown at Start/Finish, the pit stop timing clock shall stop for cars then serving their mandatory pit stop. The Enduro Race Timing shall continue. The race order shall go back to the order of the cars as they pass Start/Finish behind the on track race leader’s last Green flag lap. No work shall be allowed on any cars during a Black All. The mandatory pit stop timing shall commence at such time as the green flag is dropped at Start/Finish for the field, once the Black All has been completed. Any cars that have entered the pits under the Black All may remain in the pits but their mandatory pit stop shall not start and no work may occur on those cars until the Green Flag has been dropped on the field. Since the race order shall be the race order for the leader’s last Green Flag lap, the field may be re‐ordered in the pits during the Black All. "
04-10-2018, 11:07 AM
#3
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A black flag had to be shown before the pace car was able to control the field so people went into the pits. Plus, some people decided to pass during the black flag lap as some people did not see them. The field as it was parked was therefore out of order. In order to re-start the field, the cars had to be re-ordered manually to the running order in effect during the last lap before the black flag.
In order to do that, the field is stopped either on the front straight or grid past the timing loop,, T&S provides a list of the correct running order, the pace car is dispatched and then cars are sent out individually in the correct running order to line up behind the pace car.
What made this one more difficult: Two cars had gearbox issues and could not move to their correct spot in the running order. Two other cars actually passed the pace car during this exercise and we had to wait for them to get back to the back of the field.
Any suggestions in in terms of improving the process are always welcome other than not passing during black flag and not passing the pace car.
In order to do that, the field is stopped either on the front straight or grid past the timing loop,, T&S provides a list of the correct running order, the pace car is dispatched and then cars are sent out individually in the correct running order to line up behind the pace car.
What made this one more difficult: Two cars had gearbox issues and could not move to their correct spot in the running order. Two other cars actually passed the pace car during this exercise and we had to wait for them to get back to the back of the field.
Any suggestions in in terms of improving the process are always welcome other than not passing during black flag and not passing the pace car.
04-10-2018, 11:23 AM
#4
Rennlist Member
Two other cars actually passed the pace car during this exercise and we had to wait for them to get back to the back of the field.
Any suggestions in in terms of improving the process are always welcome other than not passing during black flag and not passing the pace car.
04-10-2018, 11:32 AM
#5
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Did anyone hang around long ugh to get a results sheet?
I believe a lot of people may have started their mandatory pit stop too late due to the lengthy delay, and penalized as a result.
Looked like 30+ cars heading into the pits after the first complete green lap. I chose to go around once more to avoid the pit lane mayhem.
Probably screwed myself by doing that...
I believe a lot of people may have started their mandatory pit stop too late due to the lengthy delay, and penalized as a result.
Looked like 30+ cars heading into the pits after the first complete green lap. I chose to go around once more to avoid the pit lane mayhem.
Probably screwed myself by doing that...
04-10-2018, 02:29 PM
#6
I'm in....
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I was kicking myself that I didn't dive for the pits after the first time by but I didn't think it was that bad. Then, the 2nd time by, I saw the wheel off. A red flag would have mad it easier. If people obayed it anyway.
04-10-2018, 03:36 PM
#7
Nordschleife Master
With respect to suggestions, an official needed to be at the top of the esses (where the PC was sitting) to get people lined up in their positions as it was clear that they did not know where they were supposed to go.
I will admit, I was happy that I still had one radiator fan in my car after watching a number of cars overheat.
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04-10-2018, 04:55 PM
#8
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With respect to suggestions, an official needed to be at the top of the esses (where the PC was sitting) to get people lined up in their positions as it was clear that they did not know where they were supposed to go.
I will admit, I was happy that I still had one radiator fan in my car after watching a number of cars overheat.
I will admit, I was happy that I still had one radiator fan in my car after watching a number of cars overheat.
04-10-2018, 09:06 PM
#9
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I was personally up at Turn 2 sorting out cars so all the action must have happened behind you. I needed to send the Pace Car ahead so I could send people to line up behind him. Most people had their motors off to avoid overheating. My recommendation is to raise this procedure as a standard during drivers meetings. They don’t happen very often and then we have it twice on a weekend. It usually means all hands on deck but there aren’t that many of us. Appreciate your patience.
04-10-2018, 09:37 PM
#10
Perfect Angel
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I realize that the logistics of the enduro are complicated but this is a situation that has happened several times before. I recall a similar exercise at VIR and last year at NJMP.
When the field is stopped in a sprint it doesn't matter.
When the field is stopped during an enduro and people are in the pits it's a disaster.
I do not know the circumstances surrounding this particular incident (I hope all are ok) but it may make more sense to allow the field to continue circulating the track. Maybe there is a new flag combo (black with double yellow) that lets everyone know this is more than a typical double yellow and maybe there is a speed limit imposed. Call it 45 mph and 25 as the field passes the incident. On track safety crew always has the option to stop the field if they need to move the ambulance or wrecker or something. This way the field doesn't need to be reshuffled and those in the pits still get a lucky dog but not the ultimate 5 lap lucky dog. I can't imagine how timing and scoring can actually comply with the rule stated above. Seems impossible. Once it's jumbled there is no un mumbling it.
Of course there will always be situations that require the field to be stopped without question but another option could be explored.
Just thinking out loud.
When the field is stopped in a sprint it doesn't matter.
When the field is stopped during an enduro and people are in the pits it's a disaster.
I do not know the circumstances surrounding this particular incident (I hope all are ok) but it may make more sense to allow the field to continue circulating the track. Maybe there is a new flag combo (black with double yellow) that lets everyone know this is more than a typical double yellow and maybe there is a speed limit imposed. Call it 45 mph and 25 as the field passes the incident. On track safety crew always has the option to stop the field if they need to move the ambulance or wrecker or something. This way the field doesn't need to be reshuffled and those in the pits still get a lucky dog but not the ultimate 5 lap lucky dog. I can't imagine how timing and scoring can actually comply with the rule stated above. Seems impossible. Once it's jumbled there is no un mumbling it.
Of course there will always be situations that require the field to be stopped without question but another option could be explored.
Just thinking out loud.
04-10-2018, 09:51 PM
#11
I'm in....
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I realize that the logistics of the enduro are complicated but this is a situation that has happened several times before. I recall a similar exercise at VIR and last year at NJMP.
When the field is stopped in a sprint it doesn't matter.
When the field is stopped during an enduro and people are in the pits it's a disaster.
I do not know the circumstances surrounding this particular incident (I hope all are ok) but it may make more sense to allow the field to continue circulating the track. Maybe there is a new flag combo (black with double yellow) that lets everyone know this is more than a typical double yellow and maybe there is a speed limit imposed. Call it 45 mph and 25 as the field passes the incident. On track safety crew always has the option to stop the field if they need to move the ambulance or wrecker or something. This way the field doesn't need to be reshuffled and those in the pits still get a lucky dog but not the ultimate 5 lap lucky dog. I can't imagine how timing and scoring can actually comply with the rule stated above. Seems impossible. Once it's jumbled there is no un mumbling it.
Of course there will always be situations that require the field to be stopped without question but another option could be explored.
Just thinking out loud.
When the field is stopped in a sprint it doesn't matter.
When the field is stopped during an enduro and people are in the pits it's a disaster.
I do not know the circumstances surrounding this particular incident (I hope all are ok) but it may make more sense to allow the field to continue circulating the track. Maybe there is a new flag combo (black with double yellow) that lets everyone know this is more than a typical double yellow and maybe there is a speed limit imposed. Call it 45 mph and 25 as the field passes the incident. On track safety crew always has the option to stop the field if they need to move the ambulance or wrecker or something. This way the field doesn't need to be reshuffled and those in the pits still get a lucky dog but not the ultimate 5 lap lucky dog. I can't imagine how timing and scoring can actually comply with the rule stated above. Seems impossible. Once it's jumbled there is no un mumbling it.
Of course there will always be situations that require the field to be stopped without question but another option could be explored.
Just thinking out loud.
04-11-2018, 07:54 AM
#12
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
First, thanks to the Road Atlanta/local PCA folks for hosting a great event (I should have mentioned this in my original post). And thanks to all for the comments. This may be something to cover in the enduro meeting at future events
04-11-2018, 09:22 AM
#13
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I was on the radio coaching and observing and I was even confused. I know Kevin Ross (subbing for us in Topher’s Car) pitted 30 sec before the double yellow came out. After the restart he was 10th, 2 laps down to the 9 cars in front of him, and a lap up on Drake who would have cycled to the front as the SPB leader without the yellow (he pitted under green). All the top 9 did their stop, several too late, but the “winner” on T&S only made a 1 minute pit stop in the closing laps.
04-11-2018, 10:49 AM
#14
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I was on the radio coaching and observing and I was even confused. I know Kevin Ross (subbing for us in Topher’s Car) pitted 30 sec before the double yellow came out. After the restart he was 10th, 2 laps down to the 9 cars in front of him, and a lap up on Drake who would have cycled to the front as the SPB leader without the yellow (he pitted under green). All the top 9 did their stop, several too late, but the “winner” on T&S only made a 1 minute pit stop in the closing laps.
04-11-2018, 11:15 AM
#15
Personally I have been racing with the PCA for 20 years this year. I race 8 races a year on average. I've been in a few "Black flag all" situations. Never have I been stopped.on track for over 20 minutes. Ever. I know some of us, including me from time to time get 'Red mist:".
That said, we may miss a flag from time to time. My belief is missing a yellow or a black is BAD. Missing a Red, more so. Missed flags by drivers should win a penalty. Missing a black flag should win you the back of the pack.
I'm sure rules are in place. When a black all is thrown all cars go to hot pit. Why were we released under black to sit on the track ?? and for over 20 minutes for the powers at be to sort it out? YIKES.
Please keep "Splain'n to me Lucy"
That said, we may miss a flag from time to time. My belief is missing a yellow or a black is BAD. Missing a Red, more so. Missed flags by drivers should win a penalty. Missing a black flag should win you the back of the pack.
I'm sure rules are in place. When a black all is thrown all cars go to hot pit. Why were we released under black to sit on the track ?? and for over 20 minutes for the powers at be to sort it out? YIKES.
Please keep "Splain'n to me Lucy"