Steve113

The other thing to think about is if you really can know what the limit of the car is ?

Most of the time its our own limit not the car . Ex: This year I set the lap record at every race attended. Same set up as last year most if not all variables with the car is the same. Just figuring out ways to keep extracting 10ths of a second all around the track. My point is I have raced for 30 years and have been racing my cup car for 4-5 I still know "I " can be faster and truly have no idea what the cars limit is in terms of times. I can tell in a segment but when you put it all together I am not sure if any racer has ever had a "perfect lap"

If that's the case the cars limit is only a hypothetical limit we have derived in our minds and not the actual limit of the car. If we haven't done the perfect lap how can we tell the limit of the car ?

We can get close but there always seems like we keep extracting more

Veloce Raptor

So true. As has already been posted here, every car can be driven faster by someone...

ProCoach

^^THIS^^

The WAY drivers manipulate the three control inputs, together with selecting and directing speed and radius at any given point, can have a profound effect on HOW the car accepts approaching "the limit."

But, your grasp must equal your reach, or bad things can happen. Fast.

Shave that onion, Steve! Tenths and hundredths at a time!

Juha G

Yes, it is very easy.

Again, I assume the OP wanted to know how to best learn car control not the "limit" of what the car can actually do.
You don't have to be a pro to go in too hot and hang on the brakes to kick the tail loose. That's a limit for the car and you just passed it.
To recover from it you need to countersteer. You learn to do that by doing it. Not by listening to someone. Repeat and you do it earlier and smoother. Repeat repeat and repeat and soon it is second nature and you notice can avoid those corrections yet stay right within the limit.

ProCoach

The original question.

Sounds like the right path.

I would add autocross/gymkhana.

1990nein

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Akunob

I prefer to start with a few definitions; a track is a series of turns/corners connected by a couple of straights...

Car's limit = the fastest speed any given car can take, its optimal racing line, around a given turn/corner

Driver's limit = the fastest speed a driver can comfortably take that corner without losing control of the car (all things being equal)

It is important to define because for any given car, its LIMIT is FIXED for each corner on any given track. A car's limit is a function of the car's dynamics, set-up, tires and the applicable laws of physics being exerted on the car (ie., downforce etc).

On the other hand, a driver's limit is primarily determined by his/her familiarity with the car, the track, his driving/racing experience and guts. A driver's limit can increase.

To the OP, you can test a car's limit anywhere. The safest place however is on a track in a thin run group, at forgiving corners (i.e, corners with enough track/runoff to recover from the certain unsettled state the car will be in, if you exceed its limit). To test and improve your (the driver's) limit, requires repetition (seat time, as mentioned) to build the needed familiarity with car & track, gain experience (driver inputs) and build confidence in both.

Coaching/DE instructors are super helpful as their driving tips will help improve your fundamentals/mechanics (e.g., vision placement, smoothness in inputs such as application of throttle/brake and steering) while their tutelage of the proper racing line will help you inch closer to the car's limit as you perfect the correct line through any given turn. As your racing line improves, all you need to do is build speed into, around and out of any given corner. Hope this helps.

For me, I think of autocross more as extended car control clinics than a means to learn proper race driving fundamentals. I find AX skills more applicable AFTER you have exceeded the car's limits and are trying to recover an unsettled car. A useful skill to have but one more needed to protect your wallet than making you faster around a track...IMHO

gbuff

Boy, ain't that the truth, Peter! Set a PB @ Mosport two weeks ago by a whopping 10/100ths (yes, a measly li'l tenth) of a second, and I was certainly "on the limit" (both myself and that of the car)

So back at Mosport tomorrow to try to find a few more hundreths w/o hurting ourselves.....prayer does help, 'specially at THAT track

Gary

ProCoach

Cross post, but relevant here, too.

036 – Kenton Koch: Developing Car Control Skills

by Ross BentleyKenton Koch joins me to talk about car control, how to develop these skills, what driving the limit takes, and the difference between cars with aerodynamic downforce and those that don’t. We recorded this conversation between races at the Trois Rivieres round of the IMSA Prototype Challenge event, where Kenton dominated both races.

ProCoach

FIFY, on the former...

Ummm, emphatically NO, on the latter...

The limit is not a static state, nor a statistic.

The goal of the best drivers is to unstick the car. This is what most drivers DON'T do.

The best drivers develop slip angles that a) mesh with the tire design engineer's target for maximum mu and b) sustain that slip angle for the longest possible time, continuously and very slightly over and under that state...

hf1

I've raced with Kenton many times in the SBRS. Great kid and a super-human driver. Always willing to share videos and advice with fellow racers, even those closely racing with him -- though that's hopefully changed now that he's a pro.

sbelles

That sounds logical but I don't think you can decouple the two. The car can't do anything near it's limit without the driver imparting forces through the controls. Every driver does this a little differently so therefore the "limit" of the car will vary with the driver.

hf1

Yes. The amount of physically available grip at each of the four contact patches changes dynamically through the driver's controls (throttle, brake, steering). That's why it's unproductive to talk about an "objective limit" of a car independent of the driver.

From the article I linked:

ProCoach

Bold changes mine.

In my experience and through objective measure, few drivers, even at the Club racing level, get past the red, and if they do, only until the correction is made. Almost no track day or DE drivers do...

DTMiller

Is objectively measuring slip angle something the average track day enthusiast can do or does it require big bucks data collection systems?

Edit to add: is this something built into the tools like apex track coach?