Porsche Sales Figures
12-11-2016, 05:28 PM
#241
Rennlist Member
12-11-2016, 08:12 PM
#243
By the way, VW never admitted they cheated on emision tests. Until they were told by the US EPA to either admit their guilt or stop bringing their cars to the US. In other words, an act of extortion forced their admission. What you might call high level extortion. Justified because of clean air, of course.
I have 3 friends who own various VWs who will never buy another VW after this scandal. They feel totally cheated as they were sold on 'clean' diesel - which now appears oxymoronic. And they have been waiting for their pay-outs to buy vehicles that are consistent w/ their values. In Sept 2015 VW admitted that in 11m vehicles worldwide there was a “noticeable deviation” between the NOx emissions seen in official testing and those found in real-world use . This is a huge scale of fraud.
My bro-in-law in Bavaria is pissed-off because they are not pushing as hard as EPA/US to get proper pay-outs after systemic misrepresentation. He wishes that their agencies were as unrelenting.
Moreover, in the US it is normal to sue companies that mislead their products attributes such as safety, that is how the system works. And this is a public safety issue. There's a reason why some major world cities are moving to ban diesels (and as an aside I drive a diesel as a DD) from entering the city center as they just aren't clean enough, http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-38170794
And as The Economist wrote on 5 Mar 16, "Emission impossible", VW's culture needs a total overhaul and this scandal may be insufficient to drive a change that is needed - for shareholders, as well as consumers. As stated, about 2/3 of VW's AG profits are derived from Audi and PAG. A lot of VW's vehicles are sold at very low margin:
The emissions scandal was a symptom of a corporate culture focused on ramping up output to 10m vehicles a year and toppling Toyota as the world’s biggest carmaker. In the quest for scale, profitability suffered. Operating profits have hovered around €12 billion ($13 billion) for years despite a big expansion in output, with the group’s huge returns from China disguising poor performance in Europe and losses in America and emerging markets.
If paying for its perfidy proves painful but not life-threatening, the impetus to overhaul VW will lose some of its force. Change is needed. VW is a sprawl of brands of varying fortunes. Almost two-thirds of its profits come from its premium-car brand, Audi, and performance-car division, Porsche (see chart 1). The main VW brand is a drag on the group
If paying for its perfidy proves painful but not life-threatening, the impetus to overhaul VW will lose some of its force. Change is needed. VW is a sprawl of brands of varying fortunes. Almost two-thirds of its profits come from its premium-car brand, Audi, and performance-car division, Porsche (see chart 1). The main VW brand is a drag on the group
VW needs to take its lumps and focus on improving efficiencies; and not using false representations to boost volumes w/out consideration for profits. I'm not sorry for them at all. I am sorry that PAG got swallowed into the VW Group, however, as that may push the marque in ways that aficionados do not favor, e.g. more and more focus on mass SUVs.
Re Porsch and Porsch-uh - one tends to find the anglophone countries like UK, Australia and NZ dropping the '-e'. I complain to my mates but they basically say "go eff yourself, that's how we say it, mate."
Oh well, I tried!
Last edited by 917k; 12-11-2016 at 08:29 PM.
12-11-2016, 09:46 PM
#244
Nordschleife Master
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-38170794
And as The Economist wrote on 5 Mar 16, "Emission impossible", VW's culture needs a total overhaul and this scandal may be insufficient to drive a change that is needed - for shareholders, as well as consumers. As stated, about 2/3 of VW's AG profits are derived from Audi and PAG. A lot of VW's vehicles are sold at very low margin:
http://www.economist.com/news/busine...athed-bad-news
VW needs to take its lumps and focus on improving efficiencies; and not using false representations to boost volumes w/out consideration for profits. I'm not sorry for them at all. I am sorry that PAG got swallowed into the VW Group, however, as that may push the marque in ways that aficionados do not favor, e.g. more and more focus on mass SUVs.
Re Porsch and Porsch-uh - one tends to find the anglophone countries like UK, Australia and NZ dropping the '-e'. I complain to my mates but they basically say "go eff yourself, that's how we say it, mate." Oh well, I tried!
And as The Economist wrote on 5 Mar 16, "Emission impossible", VW's culture needs a total overhaul and this scandal may be insufficient to drive a change that is needed - for shareholders, as well as consumers. As stated, about 2/3 of VW's AG profits are derived from Audi and PAG. A lot of VW's vehicles are sold at very low margin:
http://www.economist.com/news/busine...athed-bad-news
VW needs to take its lumps and focus on improving efficiencies; and not using false representations to boost volumes w/out consideration for profits. I'm not sorry for them at all. I am sorry that PAG got swallowed into the VW Group, however, as that may push the marque in ways that aficionados do not favor, e.g. more and more focus on mass SUVs.
Re Porsch and Porsch-uh - one tends to find the anglophone countries like UK, Australia and NZ dropping the '-e'. I complain to my mates but they basically say "go eff yourself, that's how we say it, mate."
Oh well, I tried!
Another interesting chart ... low productivity per employee
12-12-2016, 12:17 PM
#245
Rennlist Member
QUESTION TO PONDER: Halos vs. Bottom Feeders.
The higher end cars 911, GT's, etc help sell the other models like Cayenne and Panamera (which aren't inexpensive either).
What happens when the lowest prices model like the Macan comes out and eclipses sales of many of the higher model #'s combined??
From a marketing and consumer standpoint, does a flood of Macans flying around in 2-3 years hurt the brand management of the $100K-$200K+ cars?? What happens when junky 10-15+ yr old Macan's are rolling around the roads in droves.
Do those buyers get tuned off by the "bottom feeder" models when buying upstream when the bottom feeders have had success selling off of the "halo" models?
Will $50-$60K Macans help sell "halo" cars?? Hmmmm ... Does it "devalue" the Porsche brand somewhat in 5+ years??
I think the mass selling models will be dictating the business model going forward and change it forever. For better or worse. Time will tell.
The higher end cars 911, GT's, etc help sell the other models like Cayenne and Panamera (which aren't inexpensive either).
What happens when the lowest prices model like the Macan comes out and eclipses sales of many of the higher model #'s combined??
From a marketing and consumer standpoint, does a flood of Macans flying around in 2-3 years hurt the brand management of the $100K-$200K+ cars?? What happens when junky 10-15+ yr old Macan's are rolling around the roads in droves.
Do those buyers get tuned off by the "bottom feeder" models when buying upstream when the bottom feeders have had success selling off of the "halo" models?
Will $50-$60K Macans help sell "halo" cars?? Hmmmm ... Does it "devalue" the Porsche brand somewhat in 5+ years??
I think the mass selling models will be dictating the business model going forward and change it forever. For better or worse. Time will tell.
Per my previous post, they may make a lot of money on lower end Macans, but the profit per car is lower. If they mess up the "product mix" too much it will reduce the company's profit available for uses like "halo" cars and racing. My belief is that with Audi pumping out SQ5/7/3s they won't risk saturating the market but ramp production just to the point where it becomes dilutive
I for one love having a true performance SUV in my stable when I need the space. And I agree with the other poster that the Cayenne is a bigger risk to dilute the brand - terrible driving SUV in most forms (GTS/Turbo aside)
12-12-2016, 12:26 PM
#246
Let's not turn this whole thread into the emissions drama. It's a joke overall.
12-12-2016, 12:45 PM
#247
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: S Carolina coast & N Carolina mountains
Posts: 1,785
Received 158 Likes
on
113 Posts
Ever been to Beijing, New Delhi, or Mexico City lately where emissions control are lax? Did you bring a mask? Do you remember what it was like here before we put some controls on polluters? I do. Graphite shards eating your lungs and burning the paint off cars when it rained, rivers catching on fire, Love Canal, using oily PCBs to coat dusty gravel roads.... Snow with a nice light black coating after a few days..... want to go back to that?
12-12-2016, 12:58 PM
#248
Race Director
Originally Posted by DC911S
Ever been to Beijing, New Delhi, or Mexico City lately where emissions control are lax? Did you bring a mask? Do you remember what it was like here before we put some controls on polluters? I do. Graphite shards eating your lungs and burning the paint off cars when it rained, rivers catching on fire, Love Canal, using oily PCBs to coat dusty gravel roads.... Snow with a nice light black coating after a few days..... want to go back to that?
This thread is OFF TOPIC with this emissions drama and discussion.
12-12-2016, 01:16 PM
#249
Three Wheelin'
12-12-2016, 01:17 PM
#250
Race Director
Originally Posted by Fasttr
But ironically, it was the article you took from another thread that you posted in post #214 of this thread, that steered it in that direction.
Oh the irony. I'm glad we have a fact checker on here. Obviously some things get out of out-of-control.
Before you know it we're talking about having to wear a gas mask in Beijing because of VW cheating.
12-12-2016, 01:19 PM
#251
Three Wheelin'
12-12-2016, 01:51 PM
#253
Drifting
Thread Starter
Play nice, boys! Going off topic happens, let's not get bent out of shape over it. In a way, emissions and regulations do play into sales figures so all of your points are interconnected in a giant, complex, multi-layered cake called car sales. 
I'm enjoying the latest dimension with respect to brand dilution by way of increased sales of the entry level models. It's a sad day when Porsche sells more Macans than 911s but the market always decides what it wants. In a way it benefits the enthusiasts as our 911s will be an increasingly rare sight. Works for me!
I'm enjoying the latest dimension with respect to brand dilution by way of increased sales of the entry level models. It's a sad day when Porsche sells more Macans than 911s but the market always decides what it wants. In a way it benefits the enthusiasts as our 911s will be an increasingly rare sight. Works for me!
12-12-2016, 02:03 PM
#254
I found the productivity numbers posted in #244 to be interesting. Profit per vechicle, or Profit per employee would also be interesting, there I think the VW group might look better, with the higher end cars made by Porsche and Audi helping out. Again looking at the world wide picture, I think Porsche is still doing OK, well maybe not so with the 718. But I still think we need more months of data to see how the Boxster/Cayman will do. Porsche did make mention of a Plug-In Hybrid version of the 718 being on the table, however, only at the discussion level right now.
12-12-2016, 11:39 PM
#255
typically I like the updates, however the 718 redo is a complete disaster. They made it look smaller and less sophisticated and less sporty. Throw in the tiny turbo 4, and it's a car that can't truly excite anyone. Not sure why anyone would buy this over a pre '17 CPO Boxster.