Pricing Help Needed From the Experts (you guys)
04-09-2016 | 09:44 AM
#61
Pro
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 547
Likes: 16
From: Valley Forge, PA
RUN from anything at LuxSport.
Buy this one instead....
http://cvluxurycars.com/1997Porsche9...ackonBlack.htm
Buy this one instead....
http://cvluxurycars.com/1997Porsche9...ackonBlack.htm
04-09-2016 | 09:50 AM
#62
Pro
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 547
Likes: 16
From: Valley Forge, PA
When the current results come out in May I think we'll see a HUGE jump.
04-09-2016 | 11:32 AM
#63
Racer
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 411
Likes: 183
The price, even if the car was perfect, is way way too high. It is a 20 year old car and with those absurdly low miles that means 20 years of stuff that needs work. The entire suspension is probably turned into petrified wood. Once you start driving the bushings are going to fall apart, the shocks will start to leak, etc. Gaskets seals are dry from lack of use...they have become brittle with age and when you start driving and they get wet again, they can start to crumble and leak. Electrical components may have built up corrosion over time and can show resistance when they start to get used. Window regulators, the sunroof motor and cables, the mirror motors, the struts that hold up the frunk and the engine hood will likely begin to fail (especially if original) and they have not been used often. The alternator and starter motor (if original) could also fail if they suddenly experience a lot more exercise than they are used to over the last 20 years. Oh yes, don't forget the wheel bearings. Like old tires, they can develop flat spots. This is a car for someone who wants to park it and look at it for a year or so, and then hope to flip it for a small profit. Find a car that has been well driven and well maintained and for under $50k...maybe closer to $45k.
I have owned my 993 since it was new and it suffers non of these issues and it is under 30 k on miles
Same factory mechanic has gone over both my Porsches yearly since new
04-09-2016 | 12:27 PM
#64
Banned
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,579
Likes: 51
Buy this one instead....
http://cvluxurycars.com/1997Porsche9...ackonBlack.htm
http://cvluxurycars.com/1997Porsche9...ackonBlack.htm
04-09-2016 | 04:07 PM
#65
Thread Starter
Rennlist Member
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 373
Likes: 9
From: Brooklyn, NY
As an update guys. I just posted this on the 964 forum. Saw a great car today (I think) the 964 driving experiencing was super enjoyable.
https://rennlist.com/forums/964-foru...-this-car.html
https://rennlist.com/forums/964-foru...-this-car.html
04-09-2016 | 05:46 PM
#67
Pro
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 547
Likes: 16
From: Valley Forge, PA
The price is listed on his "inventory" page. $59,995.
04-10-2016 | 01:43 AM
#68
Instructor
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 161
Likes: 12
From: Bass Lake
Better photos and now I agree - something is odd about the driver's seat. Mine are perfectly matched and yet depending on the angle of the photo they look "worn". In my example it's just the flash / lighting on the deeper grooves of the natural leather. In photos of my car if you take one of the driver's side it looks worn but the passenger perfect. Then a photo of the passenger side shows that one worn and the driver's perfect. This black-on-black is much more pronounced.
04-10-2016 | 02:17 AM
#69
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,335
Likes: 409
From: Kirkland, WA
RUN from anything at LuxSport.
Buy this one instead....
http://cvluxurycars.com/1997Porsche9...ackonBlack.htm
Buy this one instead....
http://cvluxurycars.com/1997Porsche9...ackonBlack.htm
A few thoughts for the OP:
Do Your Homework- There are some great cars for sale out there, but they are few and far between. Sadly most of what is on the market is cars "shined" up to look nice that fundamentally aren't nice cars. The good news is you came to a great community, there is some good advice here. Trust your gut! Verify any claims/condition via the following 3 steps: inspect the car in person, since you sound new to these cars enlist the help of a fellow knowledgable enthusiast. I am sure someone local to you here on RL would be happy to help. If you aren't local request a "RennaFax" which means a member local to the car can give it a quick set of eyeballs. Will save you lots of $$ in wasted PPI's as most cars can be rejected in 5 minutes or less. If it passes this test than pay for a PPI at a shop that is well regarded here and in the local area PCA. Pick your own shop, not one referred by the seller. There is no such thing as a "Perfect" 964 or 993. What you want to learn is that the car is fundamentally good, it doesn't have any major surprises and that any issues you are aware of so you can make your decision accordingly. They as other have told you make sure you budget $3-5k the first year for the stuff that just "comes up" on a 20 year old Porsche. It could be less, but it could be more. A PPI isn't a warranty but it will save you 98% of the time from the $20k in repairs first year on a crummy car...
(Case in point, the car linked above is a 1-owner car that I personally bought from the owner who was FANATICAL about it. If the Porsche dealer recommended it he did it no questions asked. He even tracked oil and fuel usage on a spreadsheet... With that I still spent ~$6k on various items to make it what I would want to sell and its still not 100% "Perfect".)
Buy the Seller not just the Car- Whether you buy from a dealer or a private party the seller is as important as the car. What is their reputation (google is your friend)? Past behavior is predictive of future behavior. People here sometimes assume dealers as less honest than private parties. My experience is that honest people are honest and dis-honest people are dis-honest. You can find those in either camp, buyer beware! What is their level of knowledge? Do they have a full history? Do they take the time to answer all of your questions and provide you the needed information to make an informed choice? Do they come across as a relaxed friend or do they feel rude/aggressive or slimy? AGAIN trust your gut!
Pricing- The forums and the various pricing tools can certainly give you some initial guideposts but ultimately pricing comes down to the value you receive for the price you pay. Getting a "deal" only to find out the car is sub-par isn't a "Deal". Paying a top price but getting a TRULY top tier car with no excuses might very well be a "Deal". Sadly the biggest risk in todays market is assuming a high price means high quality, thats a VERY risky thought process. As prices have risen on these cars I see more and more cars "shined" up and proclaimed to be excellent examples (and priced accordingly) when in fact they are simply shiny sub-par examples. As a lifelong Porsche enthusiast this makes my blood boil! It means a potential lifelong Porsche enthusiast will have a bad experience not because the 993 is bad but the 993 they actually bought is bad...
Mileage- Mileage of course is one of the largest factors for value on these cars, but one of the riskiest. Many people blindly assume what is reading on the odometer is correct. Always question it. Does the wear look consistent with the mileage? Look through the records VERY carefully. I see a lot of people just casually flip through them and make a note that there is lots of paperwork. Take the time to put them in chronological order and makes sure mileage adds over time and there is no red flags. I see this ALL the time where invoices don't show mileage adding for years and then there is a note about "send odometer out for repair". This is a VERY common failure on any 911 until 1998. Carfax on these cars is not very useful as record keeping was fairly spotty in the early years of these cars.
So all that to say condition trumps mileage any day. I would much rather have an 80k mile car with perfect documentation proving the mileage, showing care and that the right items were done over history than a supposed 40k mile car with no history.
If the car comes with no/little documentation only then evaluate it assuming its a "true mileage unknown" and buy it based on its condition, PPI, etc but don't pay a big premium for mileage unless its irrefutable.
993NB vs 993WB vs 964- I own all of these cars and they are all amazing. Buy the best example that you can find, that fits your budget and "speaks" to you. All 3 will go up in value if the air-cooled market goes up and all 3 will drop in value if the market drops. In the short term the market might be slightly up/down but long term all 3 should do just fine. The good news is that even if they drop you will have gotten to drive an amazing car and 99% of the other cars will drop in value too. Buy them to drive!
Best of luck in your search!
As a side note: I am "dealer" but am a longtime member to the RL community. You will note that I never post as a "dealer" but as a fellow owner/enthusiast as I am here because I am a fellow owner (993 since 1996, air-cooled since 1991) and enjoy the community here. I am always hesitant to post anything about my business as I don't want to anyone to think I am here merely to promote my business, so I keep them very separate. I am proud of what I do but figured that since someone linked one of my cars I should just make a quick response.
Nathan
04-11-2016 | 08:42 PM
#72
Thread Starter
Rennlist Member
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 373
Likes: 9
From: Brooklyn, NY
That's a car that I am selling although it looks like it is already pending to a fellow RLister!
A few thoughts for the OP:
Do Your Homework- There are some great cars for sale out there, but they are few and far between. Sadly most of what is on the market is cars "shined" up to look nice that fundamentally aren't nice cars. The good news is you came to a great community, there is some good advice here. Trust your gut! Verify any claims/condition via the following 3 steps: inspect the car in person, since you sound new to these cars enlist the help of a fellow knowledgable enthusiast. I am sure someone local to you here on RL would be happy to help. If you aren't local request a "RennaFax" which means a member local to the car can give it a quick set of eyeballs. Will save you lots of $$ in wasted PPI's as most cars can be rejected in 5 minutes or less. If it passes this test than pay for a PPI at a shop that is well regarded here and in the local area PCA. Pick your own shop, not one referred by the seller. There is no such thing as a "Perfect" 964 or 993. What you want to learn is that the car is fundamentally good, it doesn't have any major surprises and that any issues you are aware of so you can make your decision accordingly. They as other have told you make sure you budget $3-5k the first year for the stuff that just "comes up" on a 20 year old Porsche. It could be less, but it could be more. A PPI isn't a warranty but it will save you 98% of the time from the $20k in repairs first year on a crummy car...
(Case in point, the car linked above is a 1-owner car that I personally bought from the owner who was FANATICAL about it. If the Porsche dealer recommended it he did it no questions asked. He even tracked oil and fuel usage on a spreadsheet... With that I still spent ~$6k on various items to make it what I would want to sell and its still not 100% "Perfect".)
Buy the Seller not just the Car- Whether you buy from a dealer or a private party the seller is as important as the car. What is their reputation (google is your friend)? Past behavior is predictive of future behavior. People here sometimes assume dealers as less honest than private parties. My experience is that honest people are honest and dis-honest people are dis-honest. You can find those in either camp, buyer beware! What is their level of knowledge? Do they have a full history? Do they take the time to answer all of your questions and provide you the needed information to make an informed choice? Do they come across as a relaxed friend or do they feel rude/aggressive or slimy? AGAIN trust your gut!
Pricing- The forums and the various pricing tools can certainly give you some initial guideposts but ultimately pricing comes down to the value you receive for the price you pay. Getting a "deal" only to find out the car is sub-par isn't a "Deal". Paying a top price but getting a TRULY top tier car with no excuses might very well be a "Deal". Sadly the biggest risk in todays market is assuming a high price means high quality, thats a VERY risky thought process. As prices have risen on these cars I see more and more cars "shined" up and proclaimed to be excellent examples (and priced accordingly) when in fact they are simply shiny sub-par examples. As a lifelong Porsche enthusiast this makes my blood boil! It means a potential lifelong Porsche enthusiast will have a bad experience not because the 993 is bad but the 993 they actually bought is bad...
Mileage- Mileage of course is one of the largest factors for value on these cars, but one of the riskiest. Many people blindly assume what is reading on the odometer is correct. Always question it. Does the wear look consistent with the mileage? Look through the records VERY carefully. I see a lot of people just casually flip through them and make a note that there is lots of paperwork. Take the time to put them in chronological order and makes sure mileage adds over time and there is no red flags. I see this ALL the time where invoices don't show mileage adding for years and then there is a note about "send odometer out for repair". This is a VERY common failure on any 911 until 1998. Carfax on these cars is not very useful as record keeping was fairly spotty in the early years of these cars.
So all that to say condition trumps mileage any day. I would much rather have an 80k mile car with perfect documentation proving the mileage, showing care and that the right items were done over history than a supposed 40k mile car with no history.
If the car comes with no/little documentation only then evaluate it assuming its a "true mileage unknown" and buy it based on its condition, PPI, etc but don't pay a big premium for mileage unless its irrefutable.
993NB vs 993WB vs 964- I own all of these cars and they are all amazing. Buy the best example that you can find, that fits your budget and "speaks" to you. All 3 will go up in value if the air-cooled market goes up and all 3 will drop in value if the market drops. In the short term the market might be slightly up/down but long term all 3 should do just fine. The good news is that even if they drop you will have gotten to drive an amazing car and 99% of the other cars will drop in value too. Buy them to drive!
Best of luck in your search!
As a side note: I am "dealer" but am a longtime member to the RL community. You will note that I never post as a "dealer" but as a fellow owner/enthusiast as I am here because I am a fellow owner (993 since 1996, air-cooled since 1991) and enjoy the community here. I am always hesitant to post anything about my business as I don't want to anyone to think I am here merely to promote my business, so I keep them very separate. I am proud of what I do but figured that since someone linked one of my cars I should just make a quick response.
Nathan
A few thoughts for the OP:
Do Your Homework- There are some great cars for sale out there, but they are few and far between. Sadly most of what is on the market is cars "shined" up to look nice that fundamentally aren't nice cars. The good news is you came to a great community, there is some good advice here. Trust your gut! Verify any claims/condition via the following 3 steps: inspect the car in person, since you sound new to these cars enlist the help of a fellow knowledgable enthusiast. I am sure someone local to you here on RL would be happy to help. If you aren't local request a "RennaFax" which means a member local to the car can give it a quick set of eyeballs. Will save you lots of $$ in wasted PPI's as most cars can be rejected in 5 minutes or less. If it passes this test than pay for a PPI at a shop that is well regarded here and in the local area PCA. Pick your own shop, not one referred by the seller. There is no such thing as a "Perfect" 964 or 993. What you want to learn is that the car is fundamentally good, it doesn't have any major surprises and that any issues you are aware of so you can make your decision accordingly. They as other have told you make sure you budget $3-5k the first year for the stuff that just "comes up" on a 20 year old Porsche. It could be less, but it could be more. A PPI isn't a warranty but it will save you 98% of the time from the $20k in repairs first year on a crummy car...
(Case in point, the car linked above is a 1-owner car that I personally bought from the owner who was FANATICAL about it. If the Porsche dealer recommended it he did it no questions asked. He even tracked oil and fuel usage on a spreadsheet... With that I still spent ~$6k on various items to make it what I would want to sell and its still not 100% "Perfect".)
Buy the Seller not just the Car- Whether you buy from a dealer or a private party the seller is as important as the car. What is their reputation (google is your friend)? Past behavior is predictive of future behavior. People here sometimes assume dealers as less honest than private parties. My experience is that honest people are honest and dis-honest people are dis-honest. You can find those in either camp, buyer beware! What is their level of knowledge? Do they have a full history? Do they take the time to answer all of your questions and provide you the needed information to make an informed choice? Do they come across as a relaxed friend or do they feel rude/aggressive or slimy? AGAIN trust your gut!
Pricing- The forums and the various pricing tools can certainly give you some initial guideposts but ultimately pricing comes down to the value you receive for the price you pay. Getting a "deal" only to find out the car is sub-par isn't a "Deal". Paying a top price but getting a TRULY top tier car with no excuses might very well be a "Deal". Sadly the biggest risk in todays market is assuming a high price means high quality, thats a VERY risky thought process. As prices have risen on these cars I see more and more cars "shined" up and proclaimed to be excellent examples (and priced accordingly) when in fact they are simply shiny sub-par examples. As a lifelong Porsche enthusiast this makes my blood boil! It means a potential lifelong Porsche enthusiast will have a bad experience not because the 993 is bad but the 993 they actually bought is bad...
Mileage- Mileage of course is one of the largest factors for value on these cars, but one of the riskiest. Many people blindly assume what is reading on the odometer is correct. Always question it. Does the wear look consistent with the mileage? Look through the records VERY carefully. I see a lot of people just casually flip through them and make a note that there is lots of paperwork. Take the time to put them in chronological order and makes sure mileage adds over time and there is no red flags. I see this ALL the time where invoices don't show mileage adding for years and then there is a note about "send odometer out for repair". This is a VERY common failure on any 911 until 1998. Carfax on these cars is not very useful as record keeping was fairly spotty in the early years of these cars.
So all that to say condition trumps mileage any day. I would much rather have an 80k mile car with perfect documentation proving the mileage, showing care and that the right items were done over history than a supposed 40k mile car with no history.
If the car comes with no/little documentation only then evaluate it assuming its a "true mileage unknown" and buy it based on its condition, PPI, etc but don't pay a big premium for mileage unless its irrefutable.
993NB vs 993WB vs 964- I own all of these cars and they are all amazing. Buy the best example that you can find, that fits your budget and "speaks" to you. All 3 will go up in value if the air-cooled market goes up and all 3 will drop in value if the market drops. In the short term the market might be slightly up/down but long term all 3 should do just fine. The good news is that even if they drop you will have gotten to drive an amazing car and 99% of the other cars will drop in value too. Buy them to drive!
Best of luck in your search!
As a side note: I am "dealer" but am a longtime member to the RL community. You will note that I never post as a "dealer" but as a fellow owner/enthusiast as I am here because I am a fellow owner (993 since 1996, air-cooled since 1991) and enjoy the community here. I am always hesitant to post anything about my business as I don't want to anyone to think I am here merely to promote my business, so I keep them very separate. I am proud of what I do but figured that since someone linked one of my cars I should just make a quick response.
Nathan
